Another energy meter post.

[Alex321]

At the risk of going OT but it is based around Smart meters, what is your thought on Flux?

This is a new tariff by Octopus supposedly designed for customers with batteries, they give a lower rate overnight, then a day rate, then a HIGH rate between 16:30 & 19:30 (I think) but you get the idea. They are also paying more for exporting especially in the HIGH perid.

I haven't looked at the flux offering. I am on Agile both import and export, which both vary according to the half-hourly wholesale rates. And the outgoing has no upper limit, unlike the import, so you can get paid quite a lot if you are exporting at the right times.

Unfortunately, due to communications issues between the four parties - Octopus, me, my installer (Tile energy) and the DNO (National Grid), I'm still not quite at the point of getting paid for export, and we have hit the time of year where we are generating more than we can use/store.

I finally got the export MPAN last week - so hopefully it will not be much longer.

 

[welsh dragon]

Thanks but no thanks. Its a sly way of getting you to have a smart meter, then they can do all sorts of things without informing you first, getting your permission, or taking any notice of what you want at all and they can change the goal posts whenever they want.

Bulb kept sending me emails almost every month it seems telling me the good news that I could have a smart meter. NO THANKS.

Thankfully Octoplus who have taken over Bulb have not done that. On the website, I can simply say yes and they will install one, but they are not pressing me to have one.

I'm not interested in having one. There are too many horror stories of people suddenly getting a bill for £10,000 for 1 months energy use and threats being made even though the customer may in fact be £1,000 in credit.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

I'm not interested in having one. There are too many horror stories of people suddenly getting a bill for £10,000 for 1 months energy use and threats being made even though the customer may in fact be £1,000 in credit.

I think both are exactly the reasons why you should have one, they export reading every 30 minutes, if suddenly they start to export huge numbers it's easy to prove, showing past data.

 

[Alex321]

Thanks but no thanks. Its a sly way of getting you to have a smart meter, then they can do all sorts of things without informing you first, getting your permission, or taking any notice of what you want at all and they can change the goal posts whenever they want.

Complete rubbish.

Smart meters do not alter the terms of your contract at all, and they cannot legally do anything to change things without telling you. They can do things like changing you to pre-pay without having to install a new meter, but they still have to tell you, and only do so after other avenues for getting your payments up to date have failed. They still have to follow the rules on pre-payment meters.

And there is no "sly" way of getting you to have a smart meter. It is all completely open and up front.

The government want everybody on smart meters, because they believe it will help in their aim of reducing overall energy use over the next few years. They have set targets for the energy companies to install those meters, with tolerances to allow for people like you who just aren't willing to have them.

But eventually, you will have no choice. Meters do have a limited lifespan, and all replacement meters now are smart meters. So you can refuse to change until your current meter reaches the end of its normal lifespan, but at that point, you will have no choice.

Bulb kept sending me emails almost every month it seems telling me the good news that I could have a smart meter. NO THANKS.

Thankfully Octoplus who have taken over Bulb have not done that. On the website, I can simply say yes and they will install one, but they are not pressing me to have one.

I'm not interested in having one. There are too many horror stories of people suddenly getting a bill for £10,000 for 1 months energy use and threats being made even though the customer may in fact be £1,000 in credit.

Not nearly as many such horror stories as with traditional meters though.

 

[raleighnut]

100W will only use 1/10 of a unit per hour

Yep, well worth the benefits IMHO

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Yep, well worth the benefits IMHO

Ours is about 400W continuously with spikes when the fridge/freezer kicks in, we have a pond which has a pump, a UV light & a air pump 24/7 plus all the other usual stuff, I have considered only running the pump/UV during daylight hours, but need to rejig the wiring to be able to do it as currently they come from 2 sources.

 

[CXRAndy]

I understand the argument for having the amp running for a period before full use allowing the quiescent current to settle.

But at 2.4kWatts per day 876kWatts per year @ 20p is £175 per year.

10 years £1750 you could have several capacitor replacements for far less. Modern caps last a long time before degrading

Switch the units off, turn on 30 mins before use would be my thoughts when comparing running costs V repair/service costs

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I they get to a point where they only have smart meters available to install but you say that you do not want one - then they are perfectly capable of installing it without the communication systems
The meter itself is a separate unit - with a comms box next to it. Leave out the comms box and it cannot send or recieve anything.

When I say they can - I do not mean they will - just that they can if they want to do it that way

 

[CXRAndy]

I they get to a point where they only have smart meters available to install but you say that you do not want one - then they are perfectly capable of installing it without the communication systems
The meter itself is a separate unit - with a comms box next to it. Leave out the comms box and it cannot send or recieve anything.

When I say they can - I do not mean they will - just that they can if they want to do it that way

I very much doubt they energy supplier will split a modern meter and leave off the smart communication. I find it convenient to have my meters read remotely Also when I come online with my solar the export is available-which they wont do with remote communications

 

[welsh dragon]

Complete rubbish.

Smart meters do not alter the terms of your contract at all, and they cannot legally do anything to change things without telling you. They can do things like changing you to pre-pay without having to install a new meter, but they still have to tell you, and only do so after other avenues for getting your payments up to date have failed. They still have to follow the rules on pre-payment meters.

And there is no "sly" way of getting you to have a smart meter. It is all completely open and up front.

The government want everybody on smart meters, because they believe it will help in their aim of reducing overall energy use over the next few years. They have set targets for the energy companies to install those meters, with tolerances to allow for people like you who just aren't willing to have them.

But eventually, you will have no choice. Meters do have a limited lifespan, and all replacement meters now are smart meters. So you can refuse to change until your current meter reaches the end of its normal lifespan, but at that point, you will have no choice.




Not nearly as many such horror stories as with traditional meters though.

I didnt say smart meters did.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I very much doubt they energy supplier will split a modern meter and leave off the smart communication. I find it convenient to have my meters read remotely Also when I come online with my solar the export is available-which they wont do with remote communications

I agree that it is a lot more convenient and there are better options available if you have a smart meter - I have one and I like it

However - some people don;t want one and have good reasons for that - at least to them
And they are entitled to refuse to have a meter that can communicate remotely with the energy supplier to deliver reading and receive commands such as setting changes and software updates

ALl I was saying is that the smart meter is a different thing to the comms - you could install the meter but leave the comms out and teh meter would work fine - unless it is deliberatly designed to not be able to do that
And I do not think they NEED the comms because some places have tried to have a smart meter but they live in some kind of black spot - possibly in the middle of the country - so the comms has no way of connecting - but the meter still works fine.
My mother-in-laws meter didn;t work for years and year because of this - worked fine but we needed a ladder, a torch and amirror to read the damn thing!!

 

[presta]

You can go round the house turning things off/on to see what's using the most energy with a standard meter.

If you do that with either a smart meter or a dumb meter the most likely outcome is a load of meaningless misleading rubbish. Most of the big items like fridges, freezers, cookers, washing machines, etc have thermostats and other switches that vary the power. If you measure the instantaneous power at any point it's telling you nothing about the mean power averaged over a day, or complete use cycle.

If you wanted a meaningful measurement of an appliance's average power using the electricity meter, you would need to switch all the rest of the house off for a few hours whilst you do it, to prevent the other appliances confounding the measurement, which is anything but quick and convenient. To measure one individual appliance at a time, by far the quickest and easiest way is with a plug-in power meter.

The display for the smart meter can be carried around the house, and shows instant energy use.

Instantanous measurements aren't of any help, see above.

We are with Octopus, on their agile tariff

Once we have tariffs varying in real time according to load on the grid, it'll be the customers who'll need to be agile if they can't plan their day, and meal times, without first consulting a fuel price forecast.

Until you realise that my house was on a small estate - so all the houses were built at about the same time - in fact mine was completed after most of the neighbours (long story!!!!) so teh meter was newer than theirs.
And yet it was only mine that needed urgent replacement as it was too old

They're only replaced on a sample basis, not all of them.

switching them off and on again causes damage

You might as well do that with every other electrical appliance as well then.

when first switched on they don't sound as good

You should have a word with Prof. Richard Wiseman, he's a psychologist who specialises in blind trials debunking 'connoisseurs' like art/wine/HiFi buffs who claim they can tell the difference between one product and another.

100W will only use 1/10 of a unit per hour

Or to put it another way, a 40% increase in my electricity consumption.

if suddenly they start to export huge numbers it's easy to prove, showing past data.

Easy to prove is not the same as easy to sort out. When I had a billing problem it was easy to prove, but it dragged on for about a year, and didn't end until after I'd had a letter from a debt collecting agency threatening to take me to court.

they believe it will help in their aim of reducing overall energy use

The government were forecasting an energy saving of 2.8%, but Dutch researchers found that the actual savings were about a quarter of that.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

ALl I was saying is that the smart meter is a different thing to the comms - you could install the meter but leave the comms out and teh meter would work fine - unless it is deliberatly designed to not be able to do that

Can you wrap them in tin foil? Asking for a friend - I'm trying to get mine to communicate after a transfer to Octopus.

 

[byegad]

Having read similar communications from two different suppliers I have steadfastly refused to have a smart meter. Why you ask?
1. Having a friend in the billing side of the energy business who recommended waiting for at least 3rd gen' of 'Smart meters' to become common before trusting the tech. I'm still awaiting his nod to go ahead. His boss had a trial 3G unit installed in his home and the fact that he had it removed speaks volumes.
2. I know that, if I switch the heat on, or use power to do anything, it will cost money, and I also know that something drawing 13amps uses 13 times the energy of something rated 1amp.
3. I didn't trust the tech, and more importantly for the providers to play fair. The recent pre-pay fiasco reinforces my distrust.
4. The 'terrible inconvenience' of reading and submitting readings every 3 or 6 months is such that I do it without even breaking sweat. (I must be exceedingly fit! So much so, that I do it every month.)

 

[byegad]

If you do that with either a smart meter or a dumb meter the most likely outcome is a load of meaningless misleading rubbish. Most of the big items like fridges, freezers, cookers, washing machines, etc have thermostats and other switches that vary the power. If you measure the instantaneous power at any point it's telling you nothing about the mean power averaged over a day, or complete use cycle.

If you wanted a meaningful measurement of an appliance's average power using the electricity meter, you would need to switch all the rest of the house off for a few hours whilst you do it, to prevent the other appliances confounding the measurement, which is anything but quick and convenient. To measure one individual appliance at a time, by far the quickest and easiest way is with a plug-in power meter.

Instantanous measurements aren't of any help, see above.

Once we have tariffs varying in real time according to load on the grid, it'll be the customers who'll need to be agile if they can't plan their day, and meal times, without first consulting a fuel price forecast.

They're only replaced on a sample basis, not all of them.

You might as well do that with every other electrical appliance as well then.

You should have a word with Prof. Richard Wiseman, he's a psychologist who specialises in blind trials debunking 'connoisseurs' like art/wine/HiFi buffs who claim they can tell the difference between one product and another.

Or to put it another way, a 40% increase in my electricity consumption.

Easy to prove is not the same as easy to sort out. When I had a billing problem it was easy to prove, but it dragged on for about a year, and didn't end until after I'd had a letter from a debt collecting agency threatening to take me to court.

The government were forecasting an energy saving of 2.8%, but Dutch researchers found that the actual savings were about a quarter of that.

Spot ON! A smart meter saves beggar all unless you know how it works and react accordingly.

Don't forget that those with poor to lousy mobile signals effectively have a dumb meter anyway.