Bad drivers - a mini rant
- Thread starter simon.r
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stuarttunstall
Senior Member
- Location
- Yorkshire Wolds
Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things...
One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself
Pumpkin the robot
Guru
I had a bad accident nearly four years ago. When I got back on a bike I was angry at the slightest infringement that motor vehicles commited. I got angry at drivers in ASLs, drivers getting too close, drivers jumping red lights. The list was endless. I got angry at myself for getting angry about bad driving.
I have recently finished a course of CBT and it has changed my whole demeanor. I now realise I cannot influence other people and how they drive. I can now see that subconciously I am riding defensively andI am doing as much as I can to stop myself having another accident.
I have recently finished a course of CBT and it has changed my whole demeanor. I now realise I cannot influence other people and how they drive. I can now see that subconciously I am riding defensively andI am doing as much as I can to stop myself having another accident.
@stuarttunstall I hope you stick with cycling and come back to this thread in a years time and realise, how can I put this politely ‘what a nobber’ you were. Sadly, your current thought process matches that of many motorists, who see ‘infrastruture’ for cyclists and somehow think it is ok to bully people into using it, sometimes with incredibly serious consequences. Fair play for having the balls to say it, but after you have experienced both the ‘infrastructure’ and drivers you may think very differently.
Nigel-YZ1
Guru
- Location
- Somewhere else... maybe soon.
I'll just leave this here: http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/May2018.htm
I love Facility of the Month.
I love Facility of the Month.
bladesman73
Über Member
If I choose to use the road instead of a cycle path I have every right to do so..motorists can eff off
Seevio
Guru
- Location
- South Glos
Nah, if you have an opinion please share it. Pay no heed to the more shoutier members, it doesn't mean that you are wrong because they disagree.Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things...
One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself
What you must do, however, is be prepared to back up any arguments you have with facts. (Links to the daily mail or guardian do not count) What will get you most respect, is if someone does happen to prove you wrong, stand up and admit it. Doesn't happen to me but I'm prepared for if it, if it should happen.
Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things...
One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself
I should just accept 5h1t driving then? Like I have suffered recently from the self entitled?
No cycle lanes down some of the roads I have had the crap on,not that it would have made much difference.....The attitude out there sometimes is appalling...Punishment passes,disgraceful.
I've had this argument with a self entitled one at work when I just walked into a room and he started on me with this bu115h1t.
I don't agree with your second comment but yes you should say what you think just like I do.
I'm just sore after the crap I had to put up with on the return commute back yesterday.It was not good at all.
They let these people drive? Where's H+S when you need them?
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Accy cyclist
Legendary Member
- Location
- The hills of Accrington
Half a mile?! That's a marathon run to many of the lazy gits! I once said to another one who thinks most motorists are tossers that if they could drive around a supermarket,just sticking their arms out the window to grab stuff they would do. Notice how more are parking in supermarket "Loading Only" bays,so they can get as close as possible to the shop,meaning they save on walking those few extra steps.
Randy Butternubs
Über Member
Being angry at someone who seems to have an open mind isn't helpful.
Here are some points that might help inform you:
1. The perception that cyclists are dangerous scofflaws is inaccurate.
A TFL study a few years ago found that only 16% of cyclists ran red lights. I cant find motorist red light jumping stats but from the CTC - “Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.", which would indicate that a significant proportion of car drivers jump red lights and that (obviously) it is more dangerous when they do it. I see motorists run red lights frequently. Add to that the ubiquitous speeding, widespread phone use and still common drink-driving and it is hard to argue that motorists are more law abiding than cyclists. It is impossible to argue that they are not more dangerous given the death toll on our streets and around the world.
Here's a link: http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/4756/cycling/stats-red-lights/index.html
2. Cyclists don't want to be in your way.
There's this weird idea that cyclists enjoy holding up drivers. A few seconds thought will reveal how silly this is - people do not like having fast, two-tonne objects behind them that are driven by impatient, fallible humans.
Beginner cyclists often try to keep as far to the left as possible but soon realise that this encourages close passes. More experienced cyclists will tend to move out further into the road in order to make themselves more visible and to make drivers change gear mentally and do a proper overtake rather than skimming past. It's a shame since it would be nice if one could just keep to the far left and rely on drivers to overtake safely. We are not doing it to annoy you.
Cycling two abreast is perfectly legal and usually makes safe overtakes easier. Unless a road is unusually wide, car drivers must move at least partially into the oncoming lane to safely overtake a cyclist. Riding two abreast means drivers have to move fully into the oncoming lane but reduces the amount of time they must spend in it as it makes the group of cyclists shorter.
As a side note: even if there is just one cyclist please move as far over to the right as possible when overtaking. We really appreciate it.
3. Bad cycling infrastructure is worse than nothing.
As a non-cyclist it might not be obvious to you that our cycling infrastructure is typically very poor. On-road cycle lanes are generally too narrow and often funnel cyclists directly past parked cars which leads to a risk of dooring. Shared paths adjacent to the road generally require the cyclist to give way at every side road. This not only makes them slow and inconvenient, but adds the risk of collision at every side road since drivers don't expect to see you there. Both on-road and off-road paths are often dangerously muddy or contain wet leaves or broken glass. Both types tend only to exist only on the straight sections where you don't need any help, but terminate just as you reach a dangerous junction.
Again, a few seconds of common-sense thought should be illuminating. People would rather not mix with cars, therefore if this cycling infrastructure was actually any good then people would use it. In my experience the vast majority of cycling infrastructure in the UK is both dangerous and inconvenient.
4. Collective responsibility is nonsense.
This isn't something you touched on specifically in your post but many people see cyclists as a homogeneous group and ascribe guilt from one individuals' wrongdoing to the whole. This is clearly wrong since I have no control over, or responsibility for, the actions of a complete stranger. This kind of thinking is the source of racism by the way, and is known as the out-group homogeneity effect. Start here if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity .
5. What does "mutual respect" really mean?
Phrases like "mutual respect" and "shared responsibility" (between drivers and cyclists) seem reasonable at first glance but are really an attempt to shift responsibility from those who bring danger on to the vulnerable. The argument usually goes something like this: "Cyclists want respect but they jump red lights. If they cant obey the rules they shouldn't complain." Note that points 1 and 4 apply here. The fact that some people break rules doesn't give people the right to drive dangerously around me. Even if I specifically break the rules of the road (I don't) that doesn't make it ok for someone to run me over. "Respect" isn't really the issue - dangerous driving is.
I recently read a really good article which explained this more eloquently than I can but annoyingly I can't find it. Here is a slightly less good one instead: http://mccraw.co.uk/hoy-cyclists-collective-responsibility/
Finally:
I hope on reflection you realise what a seriously nasty thing this is to say. You seem to believe that because someone mildly inconveniences you by riding on the road instead of a substandard path, that person deserves to be killed or injured. This is why you have provoked angry reactions.
I've probably missed a bunch of things out but this has already taken me much longer to write than I intended.
Edit: Oh, and one last thing
If you are wondering why cyclists get so worked up by this kind of thing it's because we are subjected to aggressive and incompetent driving and abuse on the road and then are told that it's our own fault. It feels rather like the bully's old "why are you hitting yourself" routine.
I've had people pull out in front of me, pull directly into the side of me, overtake me while I was turning right, lean on the horn, shout obsceneties, and throw things at me. In one case I even had someone stop their car so they could spit at me. Perhaps you can understand then that it boils my piss when otherwise-rational people blame cyclists for their troubles and make fun at our expense - such as when a policeman at a (motor)bike-safe course I attended made me the butt of his joke about cyclists running red lights (something which I have never done).
Here are some points that might help inform you:
1. The perception that cyclists are dangerous scofflaws is inaccurate.
A TFL study a few years ago found that only 16% of cyclists ran red lights. I cant find motorist red light jumping stats but from the CTC - “Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.", which would indicate that a significant proportion of car drivers jump red lights and that (obviously) it is more dangerous when they do it. I see motorists run red lights frequently. Add to that the ubiquitous speeding, widespread phone use and still common drink-driving and it is hard to argue that motorists are more law abiding than cyclists. It is impossible to argue that they are not more dangerous given the death toll on our streets and around the world.
Here's a link: http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/4756/cycling/stats-red-lights/index.html
2. Cyclists don't want to be in your way.
There's this weird idea that cyclists enjoy holding up drivers. A few seconds thought will reveal how silly this is - people do not like having fast, two-tonne objects behind them that are driven by impatient, fallible humans.
Beginner cyclists often try to keep as far to the left as possible but soon realise that this encourages close passes. More experienced cyclists will tend to move out further into the road in order to make themselves more visible and to make drivers change gear mentally and do a proper overtake rather than skimming past. It's a shame since it would be nice if one could just keep to the far left and rely on drivers to overtake safely. We are not doing it to annoy you.
Cycling two abreast is perfectly legal and usually makes safe overtakes easier. Unless a road is unusually wide, car drivers must move at least partially into the oncoming lane to safely overtake a cyclist. Riding two abreast means drivers have to move fully into the oncoming lane but reduces the amount of time they must spend in it as it makes the group of cyclists shorter.
As a side note: even if there is just one cyclist please move as far over to the right as possible when overtaking. We really appreciate it.
3. Bad cycling infrastructure is worse than nothing.
As a non-cyclist it might not be obvious to you that our cycling infrastructure is typically very poor. On-road cycle lanes are generally too narrow and often funnel cyclists directly past parked cars which leads to a risk of dooring. Shared paths adjacent to the road generally require the cyclist to give way at every side road. This not only makes them slow and inconvenient, but adds the risk of collision at every side road since drivers don't expect to see you there. Both on-road and off-road paths are often dangerously muddy or contain wet leaves or broken glass. Both types tend only to exist only on the straight sections where you don't need any help, but terminate just as you reach a dangerous junction.
Again, a few seconds of common-sense thought should be illuminating. People would rather not mix with cars, therefore if this cycling infrastructure was actually any good then people would use it. In my experience the vast majority of cycling infrastructure in the UK is both dangerous and inconvenient.
4. Collective responsibility is nonsense.
This isn't something you touched on specifically in your post but many people see cyclists as a homogeneous group and ascribe guilt from one individuals' wrongdoing to the whole. This is clearly wrong since I have no control over, or responsibility for, the actions of a complete stranger. This kind of thinking is the source of racism by the way, and is known as the out-group homogeneity effect. Start here if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity .
5. What does "mutual respect" really mean?
Phrases like "mutual respect" and "shared responsibility" (between drivers and cyclists) seem reasonable at first glance but are really an attempt to shift responsibility from those who bring danger on to the vulnerable. The argument usually goes something like this: "Cyclists want respect but they jump red lights. If they cant obey the rules they shouldn't complain." Note that points 1 and 4 apply here. The fact that some people break rules doesn't give people the right to drive dangerously around me. Even if I specifically break the rules of the road (I don't) that doesn't make it ok for someone to run me over. "Respect" isn't really the issue - dangerous driving is.
I recently read a really good article which explained this more eloquently than I can but annoyingly I can't find it. Here is a slightly less good one instead: http://mccraw.co.uk/hoy-cyclists-collective-responsibility/
Finally:
I hope on reflection you realise what a seriously nasty thing this is to say. You seem to believe that because someone mildly inconveniences you by riding on the road instead of a substandard path, that person deserves to be killed or injured. This is why you have provoked angry reactions.
I've probably missed a bunch of things out but this has already taken me much longer to write than I intended.
Edit: Oh, and one last thing
If you are wondering why cyclists get so worked up by this kind of thing it's because we are subjected to aggressive and incompetent driving and abuse on the road and then are told that it's our own fault. It feels rather like the bully's old "why are you hitting yourself" routine.
I've had people pull out in front of me, pull directly into the side of me, overtake me while I was turning right, lean on the horn, shout obsceneties, and throw things at me. In one case I even had someone stop their car so they could spit at me. Perhaps you can understand then that it boils my piss when otherwise-rational people blame cyclists for their troubles and make fun at our expense - such as when a policeman at a (motor)bike-safe course I attended made me the butt of his joke about cyclists running red lights (something which I have never done).
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smutchin
Cat 6 Racer
- Location
- The Red Enclave
POTD to @Randy Butternubs
chriscross1966
Über Member
- Location
- Swindon
I cycle a lot in Swindon and Oxford. Swindon has some brilliant cycling infrastructure, in a lot of cases you can get about town without touching a road except to cross it. Oxford has cycling infrastructure that in a lot of cases is a joke, a painted line 18 inches from the kerb delineating a space full of badly maintained road furniture, cracked parallel overbanding and wheel cracking pot holes is not a cycle lane.
steveindenmark
Legendary Member
The thing that niggles me is when a driver beeps at me. Most the time I have no idea what they are beeping at. It would help if they stopped and discussed what they though I was doing wrong, so I could tell them why I am doing it.
Until that happens, I will pretend they are all my friends and give them a cheery wave.
Until that happens, I will pretend they are all my friends and give them a cheery wave.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
The lanes are not put there for safety. They're put there to get those inconvenient cyclists out the way of motorists. According to CyclingUK, the statistical risk of being killed or seriously injured is higher on cycling infrastructure than it is on the road, such is the dire level of design and maintenance typically found on UK cycling infrastructure.
Nigel-YZ1
Guru
- Location
- Somewhere else... maybe soon.
Cycling infrastructure?
Oh yes... Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...
Can't be having those cyclists riding past the all important residential driveways!
Oops! lamp post, railings, glass, comms cabinet, post box...etc etc
Oh yes... Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...
Can't be having those cyclists riding past the all important residential driveways!
Oops! lamp post, railings, glass, comms cabinet, post box...etc etc
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