Bad drivers - a mini rant

[derrick]

We have cycle lanes in Enfield. Hardly anyone uses them. They are dangerous. I would always ride on the roads.

 

[raleighnut]

The thing that niggles me is when a driver beeps at me. Most the time I have no idea what they are beeping at. It would help if they stopped and discussed what they though I was doing wrong, so I could tell them why I am doing it.

Until that happens, I will pretend they are all my friends and give them a cheery wave.

I too wave at 'beepers', I may not use my entire hand to do so though.

 

[steveindenmark]

I too wave at 'beepers', I may not use my entire hand to do so though.

The problem with that is it may be someone you know just beeping to say hello. On the other hand you could end up getting stabbed to death.

 

[raleighnut]

The problem with that is it may be someone you know just beeping to say hello. On the other hand you could end up getting stabbed to death.

I've had the former happen a couple of times, never the latter.........................................yet

 

[Bazzer]

I am returning to cycling after 35 years, but I must say it works both ways and respect should be both ways.......

Round here we see a lot of cyclists, especially at weekends, and a large number, but not all ride like complete idiots who think they have more right to be there than a motorist... Some are very professional and I respect that as a driver doing about 30000 miles a year...

We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety... in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it ... maybe I will feel different once i get on my bike next week lol

I will admit I rant at cyclist around here who show no respect for the motorist, in fact when I said I was getting a bike more than one said "what! you a cyclist" lol

Stuart, without wishing to carry on catching the same splinter, but when you get your bike, your perceptions, not just of cycle lanes, but of other aspects of motorist road behaviour should also change. ASLs have been mentioned, as have close passes and RLJ ing. But out of your metal cage, unless of course you live in an area where there is a brilliant cycling infrastructure and you intend to use only it, when you do cycle on roads, your awareness will be heightened of:
Your own vulnerability.
Your own speed and the inappropriate speeds of some drivers.
The number of drug drivers.
Road positioning of vehicles, particularly in slow moving traffic having just passed a cyclist.
The number of cars for which indicators seem to have been an unticked option box when the car was new.
Just how crap road surfaces are.

 

[stuarttunstall]

Being angry at someone who seems to have an open mind isn't helpful.



Here are some points that might help inform you:

1. The perception that cyclists are dangerous scofflaws is inaccurate.
A TFL study a few years ago found that only 16% of cyclists ran red lights. I cant find motorist red light jumping stats but from the CTC - “Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.", which would indicate that a significant proportion of car drivers jump red lights and that (obviously) it is more dangerous when they do it. I see motorists run red lights frequently. Add to that the ubiquitous speeding, widespread phone use and still common drink-driving and it is hard to argue that motorists are more law abiding than cyclists. It is impossible to argue that they are not more dangerous given the death toll on our streets and around the world.

Here's a link: http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/4756/cycling/stats-red-lights/index.html

2. Cyclists don't want to be in your way.
There's this weird idea that cyclists enjoy holding up drivers. A few seconds thought will reveal how silly this is - people do not like having fast, two-tonne objects behind them that are driven by impatient, fallible humans.

Beginner cyclists often try to keep as far to the left as possible but soon realise that this encourages close passes. More experienced cyclists will tend to move out further into the road in order to make themselves more visible and to make drivers change gear mentally and do a proper overtake rather than skimming past. It's a shame since it would be nice if one could just keep to the far left and rely on drivers to overtake safely. We are not doing it to annoy you.

Cycling two abreast is perfectly legal and usually makes safe overtakes easier. Unless a road is unusually wide, car drivers must move at least partially into the oncoming lane to safely overtake a cyclist. Riding two abreast means drivers have to move fully into the oncoming lane but reduces the amount of time they must spend in it as it makes the group of cyclists shorter.

As a side note: even if there is just one cyclist please move as far over to the right as possible when overtaking. We really appreciate it.

3. Bad cycling infrastructure is worse than nothing.
As a non-cyclist it might not be obvious to you that our cycling infrastructure is typically very poor. On-road cycle lanes are generally too narrow and often funnel cyclists directly past parked cars which leads to a risk of dooring. Shared paths adjacent to the road generally require the cyclist to give way at every side road. This not only makes them slow and inconvenient, but adds the risk of collision at every side road since drivers don't expect to see you there. Both on-road and off-road paths are often dangerously muddy or contain wet leaves or broken glass. Both types tend only to exist only on the straight sections where you don't need any help, but terminate just as you reach a dangerous junction.

Again, a few seconds of common-sense thought should be illuminating. People would rather not mix with cars, therefore if this cycling infrastructure was actually any good then people would use it. In my experience the vast majority of cycling infrastructure in the UK is both dangerous and inconvenient.

4. Collective responsibility is nonsense.
This isn't something you touched on specifically in your post but many people see cyclists as a homogeneous group and ascribe guilt from one individuals' wrongdoing to the whole. This is clearly wrong since I have no control over, or responsibility for, the actions of a complete stranger. This kind of thinking is the source of racism by the way, and is known as the out-group homogeneity effect. Start here if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity .

5. What does "mutual respect" really mean?
Phrases like "mutual respect" and "shared responsibility" (between drivers and cyclists) seem reasonable at first glance but are really an attempt to shift responsibility from those who bring danger on to the vulnerable. The argument usually goes something like this: "Cyclists want respect but they jump red lights. If they cant obey the rules they shouldn't complain." Note that points 1 and 4 apply here. The fact that some people break rules doesn't give people the right to drive dangerously around me. Even if I specifically break the rules of the road (I don't) that doesn't make it ok for someone to run me over. "Respect" isn't really the issue - dangerous driving is.

I recently read a really good article which explained this more eloquently than I can but annoyingly I can't find it. Here is a slightly less good one instead: http://mccraw.co.uk/hoy-cyclists-collective-responsibility/

Finally:


I hope on reflection you realise what a seriously nasty thing this is to say. You seem to believe that because someone mildly inconveniences you by riding on the road instead of a substandard path, that person deserves to be killed or injured. This is why you have provoked angry reactions.

I've probably missed a bunch of things out but this has already taken me much longer to write than I intended.

Edit: Oh, and one last thing
If you are wondering why cyclists get so worked up by this kind of thing it's because we are subjected to aggressive and incompetent driving and abuse on the road and then are told that it's our own fault. It feels rather like the bully's old "why are you hitting yourself" routine.

I've had people pull out in front of me, pull directly into the side of me, overtake me while I was turning right, lean on the horn, shout obsceneties, and throw things at me. In one case I even had someone stop their car so they could spit at me. Perhaps you can understand then that it boils my piss when otherwise-rational people blame cyclists for their troubles and make fun at our expense - such as when a policeman at a (motor)bike-safe course I attended made me the butt of his joke about cyclists running red lights (something which I have never done).

Thank you for the explanation, I do really appreciate it and it does make better sense now a member has taken the time to explain this ....

On reflection as you say I could have worded my comment a lot better so I do apologies for making people angry... I was just stating my observations, and as I say I may think different when I get out there, in fact I dare say I will...

 

[Milkfloat]

Thank you for the explanation, I do really appreciate it and it does make better sense now a member has taken the time to explain this ....

On reflection as you say I could have worded my comment a lot better so I do apologies for making people angry... I was just stating my observations, and as I say I may think different when I get out there, in fact I dare say I will...

When you do get out there make sure you enjoy yourself - it is not a battlefield (all the time).

 

[Roadhump]

Good luck with your cycling @stuarttunstall, hope you enjoy it and stick with it.

If you do, as you get more experience, you will probably begin to understand and sympathise with some of the reactions to your post.

It might be worthwhile looking around for tips on safe cycling to help you along.

To me your comments seem typical of ingrained attitudes that we are conditioned into from an early age, and IMHO cause much of the unawareness among motorists, and ill feeling between motorists and cyclists; e.g. that cyclists should stick as close to the kerb as possible, and should always use cycle lanes where available, even though many are unsuitable, dangerous or both. If you begin to cycle on the roads with such a mindset, you may well find things more difficult than they need to be. Up until about 5 years ago, I thought similar to you, but since then I have learned a great deal from a number of sources, such as Cycling UK and British Cycling websites, much from Cyclechat, a few decent books and qualifying as a cycle instructor. I am now much more confident and, I believe, safer as a result.

Good luck.

 

[Will Spin]

I’d guesstimate I get *very nearly* hit by a car about once every 500 miles of road riding. Today was the latest occasion.

I spent the rest of my ride thinking about how close it was and what the implications would have been had I been injured. I’m still thinking about it, 8 hours later.

The point of the post - I’m getting increasingly angry about drivers. Not all of them, but the drivers who just can’t drive, the able-bodied drivers who insist on driving half a mile to the shops, the drivers on mobile phones, the drivers who routinely pull into ASL’s...I could go on.

As a result I’ve started to become an overly assertive cyclist. Doing things like getting in front of cars that pull into an ASL when there’s no advantage, taking the lane when I don’t really need to...that sort of thing.

Which is daft, really, as I’m putting myself at more risk.

Bloody drivers...it gets to me sometimes!

It's good to be assertive when cycling, but not aggressive, this takes a bit a practice and one needs to build up confidence. If I was "*very nearly* hit" by a car every 500 miles this would be at least twice a month in my case, which would be unacceptable. Having said that I do have "incidents" from time to time and I find it helps to spend a little time analysing exactly what happened to see if there is anything I could have done to avoid it such as - position, visibility, speed, route and general interaction with other road users.

 

[GuyBoden]

Enjoy your cycling @stuarttunstall

I find that quieter country lanes are the most enjoyable for cycling. Keep away from busy roads when you can.

 

[Alan O]

Just a few observations about cycle lanes since I've been back cycling in this area for a couple of years. The upside is that in the years since I was last cycling here when previously there were almost none (and what few there were were mostly unmaintained and unrideable) the situation has improved enormously.

The best cycle lanes are the ones set apart from the road - notably mixed-use ones (with walkers), following old railway routes and cross-country tracks. Some that were purpose-built alongside A roads decades ago have now been rebuilt and are pretty good - and at roundabouts and junctions they merge with pedestrian/cyclists crossings (which are far enough apart to not impede progress too much).

Having said that, there are still some dreadful ones. One in particular is well placed alongside a single-carriageway A road with narrow lanes, but its surface is terrible. Lots of bumps, and parts are made from slabs, and it seems to have just the right resonant frequency to shake my bike and bones apart if I exceed around 5mph. I do actually use that one because the road is a bit dangerous.

Some have been built on wide pavements, and they're extremely variable. At best you potentially have to stop at every side road, where on the road you'd have priority. At worst they're obstructed by pavement furniture and have poor visibility. I reckon they can easily slow a cyclist to half their on-road speed, and in most cases the roads are just as safe to ride on anyway.

Then we have quite a few that are just painted along the sides of roads, and some of them look like they've been placed by a child who has been given a map and a paintbrush and told to have fun. Frequently they're too narrow and place the cyclist practically in the gutter, which is more dangerous than being properly placed in the road lane. They tend to be along the straight and safe parts of roads and disappear when you get to junctions where they'd be helpful. And they often just start and stop apparently at random, leaving you stranded and badly positioned.

I even saw one yesterday that was about 2-feet wide, with 2 lanes!

So I use cycle lanes when they're good and I think they're safer than the road, and I use the road when I think it's a better option.

 

[Apollonius]

Point of information: Cyclists DO have more right to be on the road than powered vehicles like cars. Cyclists, horse traffic and walkers have an absolute right to us the highway, whereas inferior modes of progression must be licensed.

 

[stuarttunstall]

Point of information: Cyclists DO have more right to be on the road than powered vehicles like cars. Cyclists, horse traffic and walkers have an absolute right to us the highway, whereas inferior modes of progression must be licensed.

I was aware of the horses but not the other two

 

[dantheman]

It's important to note that there are bad cyclists and bad drivers, but from my experience 98% of road users are not out there to be pr#cks and will be mindful of other road users, I very often am given way to at roundabouts and crossings and such even when the law would give priority (nobody has "right of way") to the motorist who has waited for me - and it's very important to thank them..

There are moments where idiots are idiots and also where Road users make a mistake, cyclists do get seen by a lot of people as though they have no right to be on the road and I honestly believe that road riding is something every driver should have to do before being handed a license to drive a ton of metal at breakneck speed deliberately close to another person just because they feel they shouldn't be held up by 10 seconds... After cycling or motorcycling you realise there is real threat to being placed in gutters, riding into potholes and riding over painted Road markings (especially in the wet) that car drivers just do not realise about..

This whole subject always brings up bad feelings and comments for the opposite side (drivers vs cyclists) but what the cyclist has that the driver doesn't is the knowledge that no matter who is right or wrong when there is a collision between a car and a cyclist, the cyclist is the one who is in mortal danger... If a cyclist rides like a d*#k then 99% of the time they just put themselves in danger.. If a motorist acts like a d*#k then they put everybody around in danger, yet cyclists or pedestrians have but a tiny effect on them being in danger while they're acting that way..


Ride safe and enjoy.. I remember reading on here when I began cycling regularly along the lines of "it takes 1000 miles of cycling until you get really confident on the road, but after the next thousand that confidence will drop as you realise how over confident you were - then it will be more realistic confidence"

 

[stuarttunstall]

I know all about "idiot" motorists, see loads of them on my 40 mile each way trip to work 4 days a week, mobile phone, texting, driving in excess of the speed, drinking coffee, and one actually driving down the motorway at 70 MPH steering with his knees and holding a salad bowl in one hand just under his chin and a fork in the other !

One tonight, 5 times I watch him cut in front of other cars, including me to overtake ...