Closest overtake ever

[Nigeyy]

Magnatom,

Battle helmets on, part II!

First, no excuse for what that driver did. There's no doubt about that.
However, sorry, but I have to also make some comments about your cycling before it. First of all, let me relate a little story:

About 8 years ago I was giving a software architecture presentation about how I'd approached a problem. In the presentation, one guy just asked all the awkward questions, and what made it worse is as the presentation wore on, I was coming to the conclusion that he was voicing entirely valid concerns -and I mean really valid. And what he suggested as alternatives were better than what I'd proposed. It was a real bugger to realize that, especially mid way in a presentation.

So truth be told, if someone had given me knife, I'd have gone for him. All I can say is I took a deep breath (a really deep breath) and then came to some startling realizations: he was actually a decent guy (perhaps socially a little inept and lacking tact, but then again, he was a software guy) but what he was telling me was pure gold, and most importantly, correct. I put my mental knife down, swallowed my pride and embraced his ideas in the presentation. Why not? They were better than mine!

What I'm trying to say is what I'm about to write, try not to take it personally -just take it as another viewpoint. You've got to evaluate the worth of it.

I don't like cycling down the centre of 2 lanes of traffic (now granted I see your point of being hung out to dry in the middle of a junction, but i don't think from the video that would have happened), I think it potentially causes more issues than it solves. First, when I rode a motorbike, it's something I also did not do. Why? Well, the chances of getting doored go up as well as the chance that someone does not anticipate you being there. Yeah, sure it's the other driver's responsibility to look for you, but why put yourself in that situation?

Taking two scenarios and looking purely at probability:
1. you remain in primary/secondary leading up to the light and do not filter in the middle between cars
What do you gain?
Consistency in that vehicles around you know where you are, and the fact that vehicles perceive you not as queue jumping.
What do you lose? Maybe a few seconds? A minute or two?

2. you filter down the middle, eventually entering a space in the left lane.
What do you gain?
Seconds at the traffic light, maybe minutes? Aren't we as cyclists always bemoaning the fact that some people just always are in such a hurry?
What do you lose?
The fact you are not anticipated to be where you are by some drivers
The fact you are more susceptible to dooring
The fact some people perceive you are queue jumping
The fact you must effectively change lane.

I just figure you have better probabilities with no filtering between lanes of vehicles. Now I know that some people will argue that what you did is legal (forgive me but I'm not sure it is or isn't since I'm a little out of touch with the highway code these days) and that it's other people's responsibility to drive appropriately, but I'm firmly in the school of Life, Department of Pragmatics. You're also perfectly entitled to go into a pub and go to any large drunk rugby player and ask them if they've questioned their sexuality, and I'm sure you're legally protected to do so in our society. Of course, the question is why would you? I know it's also other driver's responsibility to be aware of you filtering down the middle, but why entrust other drivers to that when you may not have to do that? I also appreciate some people may say that whether drivers perceive you as queue jumping or not is irrelevant as it's legal. My take again is that given all other factors and the fact that I might only lose a couple of minutes, I don't mind giving the impression I'm not queue jumping. Subservient? Yeah, but does it really matter in the big picture? By the way, I'm not against filtering, just don't like doing it between 2 lines of traffic and that close to a light or junction.

Anyway, Magnatom you have my highest regard for posting your videos and opening yourself to comments like this. Fortunately, I haven't got a camera

 

[spindrift]

I'm pretty sure that driver was drunk, aren't you Mag?

There's two reasons for that kind of behaviour, inattention to the point of stupor or it was a deliberate act of aggression to "teach someone a lesson".

Both inexcusable.

And filtering isn't like picking fights in pubs nor is it illegal, don't be absurd.

 

[Cab]

I knew you'd say that.

I daresay there are aspects I'd agree and disagree with if I did the course and read the book but experience would overule training in certain situations.

You won't live long enough to have all of the possible types of accidents yourself, thats why personal experience is not sufficient to state that a particular form of behaviour must be safe. Bottom line, you're advocating a course of action that is demonstrably less safe than Magnatoms behaviour.

 

[Cab]

I have been cycling in London for years and have had more hairy incidents than I care to mention, almost all of these have been down to drivers who stolidly believe their presence on the road is 'legally' above mine and my personal safety.

Thats a slightly different thing though; motorists are never taught they are better than bikes, thats a phenomenon that arises due to identifying cyclists as being 'different', we're viewed as an outside group. Its a sad, depressing cultural phenomenon that also leads to racism, homophobia and other forms of prejudice. Quite simply, thats the level of irrationality we face.

You don't get motorists out of that habit by training them that we're as 'legal' as them, you get them out of it by demonstrating that we are the same as them, and by making examples of those who act out upon their prejudiced views; as a society we have to make it quite, quite clear that such behaviour is unacceptable.

 

[Cab]

"As I am sure you know filtering is perfectly legal."

I'm not saying it isn't but could you point me in the direction of where it says this is so?

Could you please tell me where it says that you can wear green? Or where it tells you that you're allowed to smile while cycling? You're asking for a level of detail that does not exist in an easily accessed form written guidance for road use.

Why didn't you adopt the secondary position when you pulled away from the lights?

There is not space in that lane for a safe secondary position. Remember, secondary isn't right at the edge of the road, its a good foot and a half out (thats your arm, not your wheels). Take another look at the footage; primary or secondary there is no room for safe overtaking, so the correct thing to do is adopt primary to discourage unsafe overtaking.

 

[Cab]

I agree with Crackle

Just been looking thro' Cyclecraft and can't find anything which says filter up middle and then cut in front of a driver waiting in line who has left a gap which is just about a bike length.

If you had been that driver and left a car length between you and the vehicle in front and a car had come up on the outside and then squeezed in, would you be annoyed? I would be, because it would be discourteous. I wouldn't retaliate, as your overtaking driver did, but your behaviour triggered his - his overtaking was potentially dangerous, but yours was selfish.

If you have as many near misses as you appear to, then there is something wrong with your riding. In 23 years of year-round bike commuting, I didn't have as many problems with other road users as you appear to have had in a much shorter period.

If you show this to the police, they might take action against the driver, but it is just as likely that they'll give you a bollocking.

Justifiable self-righteousness requires that you be right, and both you and the driver were not

He isn't a car. Cars cannot filter through traffic like that, it is not safe to do so, it is therefore not allowed.

Bikes can. Its allowed, it is not rude, it is not unreasonable, and it adds nothign to the journey time of other road users, nor does it increase risk for them.

You would find it discourteous? Change your viewpoint then, because it is not supported by law, common sense or utility.

 

[Cab]

Are we now getting into the realm of the vigilante cyclist? Two wheels good, four wheels bad? "I was almost hit by a car today" - is that the same as "I almost won the lottery"?

No.

The former requires that someone do something stupid. The latter requires simple dumb luck.

 

[Crackle]

You won't live long enough to have all of the possible types of accidents yourself, thats why personal experience is not sufficient to state that a particular form of behaviour must be safe. Bottom line, you're advocating a course of action that is demonstrably less safe than Magnatoms behaviour.

Demonstrably? I could demonstrate it is safe and I disagree that Magnatom's behaviour in this instance, for that's all we're discussing, is the best.

As for your contention that experience alone is not enough, then upon what basis do people become experts. Through experience and the projection of that experience into 'what if' scenarios is one way. I feel I'm pretty good at that.

Anyway, we won't agree Cab. I've read your viewpoints on other posts, some I agree with, some I don't, in this particular instance I don't.

 

[Sh4rkyBloke]

The other video that I want to comment on was the one of the Peugot pulling out of the road on the right -
View: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pCT-vtLqw_0
. Were you aware by the position of the car that she may pull out? Did you adjust your speed and position?

Muppet.

Why should Mags have to adjust his road positioning to accommodate some numpty who shouldn't be on the road?

If you were in a car doing the same thing as Mags here, would you seriously be calm and say 'Oh, that's fine, I was assuming they'd do that so I'll adjust my positioning and speed to allow them' - no, you'd probably swear at them and have to brake and be rightly peeved by it.

They approached the junction, slowed to a stop, waited for Mags to get closer and then pulled out!! Driving like that should be rewarded by points on their license and retraining.

 

[Cab]

Taking two scenarios and looking purely at probability:
1. you remain in primary/secondary leading up to the light and do not filter in the middle between cars
What do you gain?
Consistency in that vehicles around you know where you are, and the fact that vehicles perceive you not as queue jumping.
What do you lose? Maybe a few seconds? A minute or two?

And you reinforce the erroneous viewpoint that we are not allowed to filter. I would also say that your chances of being overtaken closely are no better or worse; largely, that risk is based on how big an idiot the person behind you is, and thats just the same if you stay where you are in traffic or if you filter to another spot further forward. What do you lose? Time, comfort, momentum and another shred of understanding from those watching that we're allowed to act as Mag. did.

2. you filter down the middle, eventually entering a space in the left lane.
What do you gain?
Seconds at the traffic light, maybe minutes? Aren't we as cyclists always bemoaning the fact that some people just always are in such a hurry?

Time, momentum (if you judge it just right and don't have to stop), comfort, and you publicise to those watching that we're allowed to act in such a way.

What do you lose?

Nothing. At all. Your risk isn't measurably greater, is it?

The fact you are not anticipated to be where you are by some drivers
The fact you are more susceptible to dooring

These two are linked, really. I have not seen or heard of anyone being doored between lanes of traffic. Nor have I come across anyone who has had an accident due to not being visible while filtering between lanes of cars (filtering past big vehicles with big blind spots is a different story). Have you?

The fact some people perceive you are queue jumping
The fact you must effectively change lane.

The former being an erroneous assumption that we only change by challenging, and the latter being an inconsequence.

I just figure you have better probabilities with no filtering between lanes of vehicles. Now I know that some people will argue that what you did is legal (forgive me but I'm not sure it is or isn't since I'm a little out of touch with the highway code these days) and that it's other people's responsibility to drive appropriately, but I'm firmly in the school of Life, Department of Pragmatics.

Bottom line is that you're no more certain of the response from the vehicle behind you in traffic if you're right at the front or right near the back. This incident is not the fault of Magnatoms filtering, it is entirely, 100% the fault of the motorist and we should not entertain even for a moment the possibility that responsibly filtering and claiming a good road position was in any way linked to it. It wasn't. The car passing too close would have done so had that motorist been stuck behind Mag not filtering. The level of disrespect and disregard for a cyclist shown there is so massive that it is simply not reasonable or required to entertain other possibilities.

 

[Cab]

They approached the junction, slowed to a stop, waited for Mags to get closer and then pulled out!! Driving like that should be rewarded by points on their license and retraining.

And public humiliation.

 

[mr_hippo]

Muppet. Why do I want to know the name of your favourite TV show?
Why should Mags have to adjust his road positioning to accommodate some numpty who shouldn't be on the road?
Do you really want me to explain that to you?If you were in a car doing the same thing as Mags here, would you seriously be calm and say 'Oh, that's fine, I was assuming they'd do that so I'll adjust my positioning and speed to allow them' - no, you'd probably swear at them and have to brake and be rightly peeved by it.
Would I adjust my positioning and speed if I were driving a car? Yes as I have done countless times.They approached the junction, slowed to a stop, waited for Mags to get closer and then pulled out!! Driving like that should be rewarded by points on their license and retraining.

So you are now the forum's mind reader now, how do you know what the driver was thinking?

 

[BentMikey]

I'll condense it for you dom: Filter but don't put yourself in a position where you're in the f@@kin way of a possible numpty.

Your advice of going to secondary is completely wrong, and disagrees with both Cyclecraft and National Standards Training. It's much safer to be in primary across a junction, and quite poor cycling to be in secondary, and whilst pulling off next to a vehicle.


If I'd been Magnatom, the only thing I might have done differently is give a couple of fear wobbles to dissuade this guy from overtaking. If I read magnatom correctly, his danger radar was alerted beforehand, because of the looking back.

 

[BentMikey]

I knew you'd say that.

I daresay there are aspects I'd agree and disagree with if I did the course and read the book but experience would overule training in certain situations.

Talking of training, hands up if you don't cross your hands going around a corner in your car (actually I bet you don't)?

You might use your experience to overrule the training, but that's simply showing two things:

Cycling isn't very dangerous, so you can get away with imperfect cycling behaviour.
Your experience lets you deal with your imperfect cycling practice in a way that reduces the risk, but perhaps not as much as if you'd been cycling properly in the first place.

And I do realise that applies to all of us, I'm sure we all do things incorrectly at least once in a while.

 

[BentMikey]

I cross myself before I head out on the London roads!

But seriously, and this has been discussed on Magnatom's threads before, it is every cyclists perogative to ride according to Cyclecraft but until all drivers have read it and understand just how simply their driving can be refreshed to include cycles in their thinking we are stuck in a one way argument.
I have been cycling in London for years and have had more hairy incidents than I care to mention, almost all of these have been down to drivers who stolidly believe their presence on the road is 'legally' above mine and my personal safety.

To me the beauty of cyclecraft is that it doesn't need to be read by car drivers. Their knowledge or lack thereof is utterly irrelevant to the way cyclecraft teaches riding.