Dutch Sustainable Safety in action

[Richard Mann]

Video of lots of separate bike/ped/bus/car roads from the Netherlands (not Holland!!!):

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NuOiKCBO1hU
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Not sure I'd like to live somewhere where quite so much land was given to transport, myself...

 

[dellzeqq]

let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.

Go Dutch? No thanks.......

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Totally inadequate. They forgot to put in a track for skaters, one of skateboarders, one for motorcycles, one for dog-walkers, one for children on tricycles, access roads for trucks ...

 

[sheddy]

Ride it and weep...

 

[Red Light]

Video of lots of separate bike/ped/bus/car roads from the Netherlands (not Holland!!!):

You're going to have to get the University to knock down quite a few of its colleges to fit those into Oxford and even then I'd love to see you try to train British drivers to behave in the way the Dutch drivers do at about the 40s mark.

 

[ushills]

There was even a scooter on the bike lane at around 1:35

 

[dand_uk]

Cycle lanes like those in the video are the only way to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).

The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.

 

[Riding in Circles]

Superb, cycling in the Netherlands is a real pleasure.

 

[Red Light]

Cycle lanes like those in the video are the only way to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).

The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.

Only problem is all those pesky building we have getting in the way of the required width.

 

[dellzeqq]

Cycle lanes like those in the video are the only way to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).

The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.

you could not be more wrong - and, to be honest, those traffic schemes are so vile that the price wouldn't be worth paying even if you were right. One thing's for certain - this is in no way 'sustainable'. Covering this amount land with transport is a shocking waste of resources.

We can all relax. As RL says, you'd have to knock down an awful lot of buildings to build these abominations.

I'm intrigued, Richard. Did someone circulate this in the hope of discrediting the 'Go Dutch' foolishness?

 

[stowie]

let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.

Go Dutch? No thanks.......

As opposed to this, for example, which is an absolute joy.

I am no great fan of the dutch method of segregation - it should be unnecessary outside major trunk roads connecting urban centres. But I haven't ever heard any other suggestions in dealing with, for example, Stratford Gyratory, outside "vehicular" cycling. Which even the hardiest vehicular cyclists must admit is a challenge in the face of road systems such as these. In the spirit of "show me the drawing" I would genuinely like to understand what might be done with road systems such as these (aside from massively reducing motor vehicle capacity or segregating).

 

[dellzeqq]

straw man, Stowie - you'll look in vain for somebody to defend Stratford - but there are any number of things we can do to our existing streets more civilised. And they're the only streets we're going to have for a very long time to come.

Now, if we compare Clapham High Street with those Dutch jobbies, you've got yourself a game. People crowding on the pavements, crossing the road, traffic reduced to sensible speeds, healthy businesses to either side, and waaaaaay more cyclists.....it's all good!

 

[stowie]

straw man, Stowie - you'll look in vain for somebody to defend Stratford - but there are any number of things we can do to our existing streets more civilised. And they're the only streets we're going to have for a very long time to come.

Now, if we compare Clapham High Street with those Dutch jobbies, you've got yourself a game. People crowding on the pavements, crossing the road, traffic reduced to sensible speeds, healthy businesses to either side, and waaaaaay more cyclists.....it's all good!

But it isn't a straw man. I have to cycle the f*cking thing regularly. Clapham High Street might be cycling nirvana with nymphs throwing rose petals in the path to scent your ride, but I don't use it, so I don't know. And Stratford is just one example out of many in London that I could have mentioned.

I see more cyclists on roads in Walthamstow at the moment and it makes me happy. I saw a family cycling (with two children) on Hoe Street at the weekend and I wanted to weep with joy. I know that attitudes are changing. But I still question - what can be done about abominations like Stratford Gyratory that stand a hope of actually being implemented? Without grasping the thorny question of these roads I cannot see how we can expect many people to be cycling them. And they form barriers around key places people want to visit, or need to traverse.

 

[dellzeqq]

it is a straw man, Stowie, because nobody is defending Stratford. There's no reason why Stratford could not go back to the way it was fifty years ago, with a high street to the southeastern side, and the railway side turned in to a bus lane - or whatever (it being for the people of Newham to decide), but there is no way on this earth it's going to wind up like the Dutch jobbies.

 

[stowie]

The reason it won't go back is because traffic flow is the key factor for the gyratory and anything that affects this won't be tolerated (even having a half decent crossing between Westfield and Stratford Centre seems out of the question). Maybe I am misreading "going dutch" but to me it includes things like your suggestion to revert places like Stratford into an actual high street. As well as treatment of more minor roads that doesn't segregate or exclude cars but make the routes direct for cycling and walking and no through roads for motor traffic.

And if Stratford is a straw man, who is suggesting that places like Clapham High Street (Or Hoe Street or Leyton High Road) should be segregated? I certainly wouldn't want this. But these are almost "self healing" places - the traffic has become so slow that cyclists and pedestrians can almost make these "shared zones" without much help.