E bikes that look like motorbikes ?

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Hacienda71

Mancunian in self imposed exile in leafy Cheshire
Scooters are still illegal unless part of a town/city public hire scheme.
I was quite surprised and pleased to see an unmarked traffic car pull a middle aged bloke up on one in Wilmslow where there isn't a hire scheme.
 
I've been in Manchester today, and have been out of the office a couple of times. Vast majority are adapted standard bikes with a driven hub, and a huge battery usually gaffa taped into the front triangle, filling it completely. Mostly by Deliveroo riders. Then spotted what looked like a normal 'cyclist' whith an oblong battery on the pannier - the lady wasn't even pedalling as she whizzed along. These are outnumbering normal legal bikes now in Manchester.

Twist and go ebikes were legal up to 2016 to sell and still legal to use if you have one. If you have a bicycle made before that cut off date and fit a twist and go ebike kit of 250W and 15.5mph maximum assistance I still wonder if that is legal as ebike kits were never integrated into law but have been accepted as legal it seems. There is still a procedure for having a twist and go ebike without insurance and road tax etc but they have to be individually tested and of course aren't legal for use outside the UK. Twist and go ebikes allow for the elderly and disabled to cycle it was a retro step when we implemented the European laws here that restricted ebikes to pedal assist only. Many of the mid-drive motors have peak output well above 250W some close to 800W like some Bosch models. I think the big issue is very powerful motors that assist beyond 15.5mph. While assisting I can't see the need to pedal. If you are not pedalling it helps you concentrate on what is happening around you which is important in busy urban traffic.

Even the government site has a confusing information.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

They state maximum power of 250W but of course almost all ebikes exceed 250W. 250W is normally nominal or rated power. I think the correct definition is the maximum power the motor can hold without over-heating and can therefore provide that power continuously so at 251W it would start to over-heat and could only do that for shorter periods. However often its the same motor sold at 250W and 350W just electronically restricted at 250W and perhaps peak power twice that amount. Most e-mountain bikes with mid-drive motors are technically illegal as often exceed well over 500W power but no one cares it seems. If you removed all ebikes from the road with questionable legality probably most would disappear. Mid-drive motors have the advantage that the controller circuit and motor are contained within the same unit so can have a very high current channel to provide very high currents hence the 800W power. People think because its a £8k ebike sold in a shop somehow its more legal but they are also pushing beyond the boundaries of ebike law.

Must be a absolute nightmare for the police to understand and lets face it all the evidence I've seen is they don't bother. Yes they will get the hugely powerful 2000W ebikes and crush them on occasion but most of the time nothing happens. I mean really the only thing they can check for is the 15.5mph/25kph assistance speed easily which actually is a 17mph maximum assistance speed allowing for the legal tolerance.

On a hub motor ebike if the chain breaks the motor still operates when you turn the cranks despite the person not assisting the bike at all. You are just spinning the cranks with zero resistance. There is no law to stop you removing the chain and operating your ebike this way. You are still technically pedalling to allow the motor to function.

The way ebike law is written is a complete mess.

Something simple like maximum ebike weight before additional accessories fitted 30kg and maximum assistance speed 15.5mph would be so much more sensible. Maybe a maximum acceleration limit would be useful too to improve safety especially on shared paths. Maybe a braking maximum distance would help too. We want to get as many people cycling as possible so I feel wattage should not be restricted for heavier riders especially elderly or disabled who need maximum assistance for hills.
 

Roadrat77

Active Member
Location
Birmingham
They're an absolute menace and should never have been allowed - totally silent, faster than any road bike and usually ridden by some yob with zero road sense and even less brain cells - its idiots like these who get the good guys a bad name. Birmingham has a huge problem with them and the police seem to have given up doing anything about it.
They're also the vehicle of choice for inner city drug runners because of their manoeuvrability.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
They're an absolute menace and should never have been allowed - totally silent, faster than any road bike and usually ridden by some yob with zero road sense and even less brain cells - its idiots like these who get the good guys a bad name. Birmingham has a huge problem with them and the police seem to have given up doing anything about it.
They're also the vehicle of choice for inner city drug runners because of their manoeuvrability.

At least when petrol MX bikes were used, you could hear them before seeing them and be aware as they wheelied past you in traffic. Just impossible with the electric ones !
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Twist and go ebikes were legal up to 2016 to sell and still legal to use if you have one. If you have a bicycle made before that cut off date and fit a twist and go ebike kit of 250W and 15.5mph maximum assistance I still wonder if that is legal as ebike kits were never integrated into law but have been accepted as legal it seems. There is still a procedure for having a twist and go ebike without insurance and road tax etc but they have to be individually tested and of course aren't legal for use outside the UK. Twist and go ebikes allow for the elderly and disabled to cycle it was a retro step when we implemented the European laws here that restricted ebikes to pedal assist only. Many of the mid-drive motors have peak output well above 250W some close to 800W like some Bosch models. I think the big issue is very powerful motors that assist beyond 15.5mph. While assisting I can't see the need to pedal. If you are not pedalling it helps you concentrate on what is happening around you which is important in busy urban traffic.

Even the government site has a confusing information.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

They state maximum power of 250W but of course almost all ebikes exceed 250W. 250W is normally nominal or rated power. I think the correct definition is the maximum power the motor can hold without over-heating and can therefore provide that power continuously so at 251W it would start to over-heat and could only do that for shorter periods. However often its the same motor sold at 250W and 350W just electronically restricted at 250W and perhaps peak power twice that amount. Most e-mountain bikes with mid-drive motors are technically illegal as often exceed well over 500W power but no one cares it seems. If you removed all ebikes from the road with questionable legality probably most would disappear. Mid-drive motors have the advantage that the controller circuit and motor are contained within the same unit so can have a very high current channel to provide very high currents hence the 800W power. People think because its a £8k ebike sold in a shop somehow its more legal but they are also pushing beyond the boundaries of ebike law.

Must be a absolute nightmare for the police to understand and lets face it all the evidence I've seen is they don't bother. Yes they will get the hugely powerful 2000W ebikes and crush them on occasion but most of the time nothing happens. I mean really the only thing they can check for is the 15.5mph/25kph assistance speed easily which actually is a 17mph maximum assistance speed allowing for the legal tolerance.

On a hub motor ebike if the chain breaks the motor still operates when you turn the cranks despite the person not assisting the bike at all. You are just spinning the cranks with zero resistance. There is no law to stop you removing the chain and operating your ebike this way. You are still technically pedalling to allow the motor to function.

The way ebike law is written is a complete mess.

Something simple like maximum ebike weight before additional accessories fitted 30kg and maximum assistance speed 15.5mph would be so much more sensible. Maybe a maximum acceleration limit would be useful too to improve safety especially on shared paths. Maybe a braking maximum distance would help too. We want to get as many people cycling as possible so I feel wattage should not be restricted for heavier riders especially elderly or disabled who need maximum assistance for hills.
The "way round" getting an a throttle on an e-assist bike is to put it through the MVSA, and get it classified as a light moped. Being a light moped then means that all the requirements of moped use be met. Both for bike and rider.

I'd say that the growing use of illegal ebikes, pedals fitted just to make it look like a bike but used only as footrests, will fuel the cries for cyclists to be registered, licensed and insured.
 
They're an absolute menace and should never have been allowed - totally silent, faster than any road bike and usually ridden by some yob with zero road sense and even less brain cells - its idiots like these who get the good guys a bad name. Birmingham has a huge problem with them and the police seem to have given up doing anything about it.
They're also the vehicle of choice for inner city drug runners because of their manoeuvrability.

There has been some ebikes crushed in Birmingham and I've not heard similar stories for many other areas although the problem could be less in other areas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-61457018
 
The "way round" getting an a throttle on an e-assist bike is to put it through the MVSA, and get it classified as a light moped. Being a light moped then means that all the requirements of moped use be met. Both for bike and rider.

I'd say that the growing use of illegal ebikes, pedals fitted just to make it look like a bike but used only as footrests, will fuel the cries for cyclists to be registered, licensed and insured.

A throttle is completely legal its just a way of controlling power levels the restriction is the motor mustn't operate if not pedalling but its fully legal to have a throttle as long as it only operates as you pedal the ebike. You could also fit a 24T chainring at the front and a single 40T cog at the rear if that was possible to make the gearing extremely low so you don't have to assist the motor at all really. It's effectively a twist and go ebike as per before 2016 legislation. The EU legislation was really more about EU ebike designs and how the industry in mainly Germany wanted to reduce imports from China it was never good legislation and resulted in a lot of very high cost, high maintenance and unreliable ebikes. Over 95% of ebikes in the world are hub based according to Chinese industry statistics and they make most of the ebike parts and complete ebikes.
 

Vantage

Carbon fibre... LMAO!!!
They're an absolute menace and should never have been allowed - totally silent, faster than any road bike and usually ridden by some yob with zero road sense and even less brain cells - its idiots like these who get the good guys a bad name. Birmingham has a huge problem with them and the police seem to have given up doing anything about it.
They're also the vehicle of choice for inner city drug runners because of their manoeuvrability.

Same could be said for any cyclist using a non e bike. The war against cyclists has been going on since long before batteries were added to them.
Why would you not allow them? I assume you mean the 250w models because anything over that is already illegal to use without proper registration and testing. Bolton where I live is a pretty hilly town and ebikes has allowed many folk who struggle with hills (myself included) to carry on riding. I heard a story of a couple in their 80's who toured all over the world and the ebikes they bought are enabling them to ride into old age.
There are folk who can now ride to work and do a 12 hour shift then get home again without being knackered by the cycling alone. Ebikes benefit alot of people, not just the idiots.
Regarding your statement about ebikes being silent. Non ebikes are in fact quieter.
 

Roadrat77

Active Member
Location
Birmingham
Same could be said for any cyclist using a non e bike. The war against cyclists has been going on since long before batteries were added to them.
Why would you not allow them? I assume you mean the 250w models because anything over that is already illegal to use without proper registration and testing. Bolton where I live is a pretty hilly town and ebikes has allowed many folk who struggle with hills (myself included) to carry on riding. I heard a story of a couple in their 80's who toured all over the world and the ebikes they bought are enabling them to ride into old age.
There are folk who can now ride to work and do a 12 hour shift then get home again without being knackered by the cycling alone. Ebikes benefit alot of people, not just the idiots.
Regarding your statement about ebikes being silent. Non ebikes are in fact quieter.

Ebikes are like a lot of things - started off as a geat idea but became corrupted. They should.d be fitted with a noise device like electric cars are these days. My hearing is superb but I once stood on a street corner and an electric vehicle pulled out of a side street next to me and I literally never heard a thing and was totally unaware of it until i looked at it - that is not good news for pedestrians or cyclists.
 

Vantage

Carbon fibre... LMAO!!!
So you want the users of ebikes to go around with sound pollution devices? Are we not entitled to ride in peace and quiet like everyone else? You think the general public are going to be happy having their country park walk as we pass emitting some annoying alert signal?
What if you were forced to have part of a yogurt pot stuck to your chainstay so the spokes make a motorbike noise as you ride around?
Over my dead rotting corpse.
 

Roadrat77

Active Member
Location
Birmingham
So you want the users of ebikes to go around with sound pollution devices? Are we not entitled to ride in peace and quiet like everyone else? You think the general public are going to be happy having their country park walk as we pass emitting some annoying alert signal?
What if you were forced to have part of a yogurt pot stuck to your chainstay so the spokes make a motorbike noise as you ride around?
Over my dead rotting corpse.

So when you or one your kids gets hit by one of these things because you never heard it coming you'll be OK with that because at least they weren't "sound polluting" when they hit them....
 
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