E bikes that look like motorbikes ?

[bonzobanana]

Illegal under the current regulations, unless the e-assist bike was built before 2016 and came equipped with a throttle then. It doesn't apply retrospectively. And it's not the age of the bike if you're considering putting a conversion kit on a bike built before 2016.

See the thread Throttle on here for more information. Including from a manufacturer who will put it through the MVSA test for you.

The changes to the regulations in 2016 were to get a single standard across the EU. These include the motor size and speed.

You keep writing as if throttles are illegal which they aren't its the twist and go nature of some ebikes that had a throttle. You seem to be confused about the legislation. Ebike kits are not part of the legislation they were overlooked and not incorporated into them they are just allowed or overlooked. The legislation was about factory built complete ebikes. The fact you can have a ebike assessed and allowed to have twist and go functionality is separate from EU legislation. I think this exception was to provide an option for disabled and elderly cyclists and doesn't comply with EU legislation. However such ebikes have to be individually tested which is a stupid process to be honest. Now that we are out of the EU we should just go back to our original legislation which was far superior because it improved safety and accessibility to ebikes.

 

[Regular.Cyclist]

Scooters are still illegal unless part of a town/city public hire scheme.
I was quite surprised and pleased to see an unmarked traffic car pull a middle aged bloke up on one in Wilmslow where there isn't a hire scheme.

They isn't a hire scheme where I am either but I was saddened and amazed at what I witnessed yesterday. I was at a red traffic with two police motorcyclists immediately in front of me at the front of the stopped traffic. A youth on an escooter ran the red light and continued along the road. On occasion he mounted and dismounted the pavement too.

The police did absolutely nothing,.

 

[vickster]

No not 30. 15 maybe depending on the gradient.
I don't think speed uphill is the issue here though. It's speed in general and the fact that some ebikes can be powered to those speeds without any effort from the rider.
However, I've seen plenty of threads/topics where everyone happily posts the top speed they reached on their non powered bikes and those speeds are usually given a 'well done old chap/girl' without issue.
I can't understand why there's a hatred of ebikers doing the same thing. It makes no sense. I suspect its because some non ebikers think it lazy but then are happy to jump into their cars and drive around sat on their arse. Hypocritical? I think so.

The objection is to illegal de-restricted E-bikes that are ridden at high speeds without heed to other road, cycle path and pavement users.

 

[bonzobanana]

@bonzobanana - if you are not turning the cogs there is nothing for the motor to assist, surely. I have an Orbea Gain wth a hub motor and, if the chain is off, turning the pedals does nothing. The cogs need to be turning to be able to be assisted.

Legal e-bikes will have different levels of assistance available - mine has 3 - which could be seen as a very primitive type of throttle.

With a hub motor the cadence sensor just detect the cranks turning and the motor is powered. Yes its not assisting if you don't do any actual work its doing the movement completely itself. Your Orbea may have torque based sensor not cadence which is the same as most mid-drive motors, it senses how much power you put in and scales the motor power with it. Most hub motor based ebikes are cadence based so they provide motor power even without a chain present as long as you pedal. An example of a torque sensor based hub motor system would be the Suntour HESC system fitted to many Halfords ebikes.

Some cadence based ebikes using hub motors have assistance levels that vary by speed i.e. low assistance may assist up to 5mph, middle assistance up to 10mph and high assistance up to 15.5mph. It's the more primitive style of assistance which doesn't vary the power of the motor at all in fact such ebikes typically abruptly apply power. This is the crudest most basic form of ebike assistance. Compared to a throttle where you simply apply only when you want power, hills etc those systems feel complete rubbish. Throttles are I think the nicest way of controlling power and maximising range. Most ebikes in the world have throttles its only really in Europe where its less common due to the poor legislation.

 

[classic33]

No not 30. 15 maybe depending on the gradient.
I don't think speed uphill is the issue here though. It's speed in general and the fact that some ebikes can be powered to those speeds without any effort from the rider.
However, I've seen plenty of threads/topics where everyone happily posts the top speed they reached on their non powered bikes and those speeds are usually given a 'well done old chap/girl' without issue.
I can't understand why there's a hatred of ebikers doing the same thing. It makes no sense. I suspect its because some non ebikers think it lazy but then are happy to jump into their cars and drive around sat on their arse. Hypocritical? I think so.

For me, it's the fact that people see the bike first, usually being ridden by someone who couldn't care less where cycle. It's an easier means of getting around than walking, and certainly easier than having to pedal around*. This could lead to greater cries for all cyclists to be treated the same, licence, insurance, those sort of thing's.

I'm not one for cycling on the pavements, I'll get off and push. What does seem to be happening is that a greater number of these mopeds/motorbikes are being ridden with no regard for anyone else. It's just a bike after all.

It's possible to go faster on an "ordinary" non assisted bike, no argument there. And I have posted how fast I've gone before today. And I've been criticised for both the speed and for having the nerve to cycle on public roads. Some have no pedestrian access on parts.

The thing is that while they look like bicycles, they're not. Other than pressing a button, or twisting a throttle, there's no input from the rider in the speed.


*In the case of the illegal ones, mopeds/motorbikes looking like bicycles.

 

[Vantage]

The objection is to illegal de-restricted E-bikes that are ridden at high speeds without heed to other road, cycle path and pavement users.

The bikes aren't the problem. It's the users.
You might remember that mountain bikes came under similar fire when they first came to these shores.

 

[vickster]

The bikes aren't the problem. It's the users.
You might remember that mountain bikes came under similar fire when they first came to these shores.

No idea, before my time I think.
Yes, but if the tech fitted to the the bikes didn’t exist, the users couldn’t be daffodils 👍🏻

 

[classic33]

With a hub motor the cadence sensor just detect the cranks turning and the motor is powered. Yes its not assisting if you don't do any actual work its doing the movement completely itself. Your Orbea may have torque based sensor not cadence which is the same as most mid-drive motors, it senses how much power you put in and scales the motor power with it. Most hub motor based ebikes are cadence based so they provide motor power even without a chain present as long as you pedal. An example of a torque sensor based hub motor system would be the Suntour HESC system fitted to many Halfords ebikes.

Some cadence based ebikes using hub motors have assistance levels that vary by speed i.e. low assistance may assist up to 5mph, middle assistance up to 10mph and high assistance up to 15.5mph. It's the more primitive style of assistance which doesn't vary the power of the motor at all in fact such ebikes typically abruptly apply power. This is the crudest most basic form of ebike assistance. Compared to a throttle where you simply apply only when you want power, hills etc those systems feel complete rubbish. Throttles are I think the nicest way of controlling power and maximising range. Most ebikes in the world have throttles its only really in Europe where its less common due to the poor legislation.

I was in favour of moving to what we have now, regulations in use since 2016. But I'm wondering how many riding electric motorbikes/mopeds would be happy at the old limits we had. Both speed and motor size, if they were allowed a throttle. There's not be too many, in my opinion, in favour of the old rules being used.

Be careful in what you want, there may be a price to pay. There were throttles, but speed and motor size weren't good enough. Both of those were increased, but the throttle was removed.

 

[classic33]

You keep writing as if throttles are illegal which they aren't its the twist and go nature of some ebikes that had a throttle. You seem to be confused about the legislation. Ebike kits are not part of the legislation they were overlooked and not incorporated into them they are just allowed or overlooked. The legislation was about factory built complete ebikes. The fact you can have a ebike assessed and allowed to have twist and go functionality is separate from EU legislation. I think this exception was to provide an option for disabled and elderly cyclists and doesn't comply with EU legislation. However such ebikes have to be individually tested which is a stupid process to be honest. Now that we are out of the EU we should just go back to our original legislation which was far superior because it improved safety and accessibility to ebikes.

Let's go back to the old, pre 2016 regulations, then. Slower speed, 121/2 mph cutoff limit and lower power motors.

And it did include kits that could be used to make an e-assist bike. Throttle for me means something that is twisted, not a button that's pressed(which is also a throttle under both sets of regulations).

Have a read of the thread "Throttle" on here. The work required for the throttle, manufacturer's wording, is outlined. And in the 2016 regulations is the piece about how the work around was done.

How do I know? I tried to add electric assist to a cycle. And got caught up by the fact the pre 2016 regulations didn't cover four wheels.

 

[youngoldbloke]

Let's go back to the old, pre 2016 regulations, then. Slower speed, 121/2 mph cutoff limit and lower power motors.

No, lets not. 15.5 mph is a few mph lower than would be appropriate for the relatively new genre of e-road bikes. Lets have different cut off speeds for different classes of bike. 15.5mph is plenty for utility or cargo e-bikes, maybe 18.5 or 20mph for e-road.
Of course policing this would be a nightmare, as is enforcement of the current regulations.
However, the e-'bikes' being ridden on the pavement at 30mph without pedal input are patently illegal, so the law should be enforced, and these things crushed.

 

[classic33]

No, lets not. 15.5 mph is a few mph lower than would be appropriate for the relatively new genre of e-road bikes. Lets have different cut off speeds for different classes of bike. 15.5mph is plenty for utility or cargo e-bikes, maybe 18.5 or 20mph for e-road.
Of course policing this would be a nightmare, as is enforcement of the current regulations.
However, the e-'bikes' being ridden on the pavement at 30mph without pedal input are patently illegal, so the law should be enforced, and these things crushed.

Folk seem to think that the pre 2016 regulations were easier, and want to return to them for one piece of equipment allowed under those regulations. There's more to lose than gain.

They were EU wide regulations, but with motor size and cut-off speed different in most countries.

 

[fossyant]

Looks like two youngsters have just paid a heavy price for blasting round on the illegal bikes. Two (pillioned) have smashed into a car tonight at the end of our road - my wife can't even walk past to get home. Heli job. It's a 20 mph side road, width restrictions and speed humps. Looks like a car has pulled out as these two came whizzing down and hit it - visibility isn't good but speed of these illegal bikes makes it very difficult, and if it's a silent electric one. Fingers crossed they survive and lean a life lesson. Potentially three families lives ruined now ! Driver, and two kids.

 

[postman]

Where is the media shouting they need insurance and number plates.These things are a menace.But it's also about the type of person who rides them especially around our parts.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Where is the media shouting they need insurance and number plates.These things are a menace.But it's also about the type of person who rides them especially around our parts.

The problem is that many non-cyclists and those aspects of the media who seem to be against cycling cannot be bothered to differentiate between normal bikes, e-bikes and de-restricted e-bikes.

We are all 'bloody cyclists' and RLJs.

 

[fossyant]

Where is the media shouting they need insurance and number plates.These things are a menace.But it's also about the type of person who rides them especially around our parts.

Lads have always whizzed about on illegal MX bikes for years, just they are way faster now, and leccy ones are silent (more or less). Local village faceache page gone mental, fair few saying kama as they were ragging up and down all day, some saying 'didn't you do daft stuff as a kid' - not whizzing about on an illegal bike on the road though ? There are places to do this - MTB'ing off road where it's permitted, etc. All very sad.