I got a fixed penalty today

[kendalcottages]

What's a local bus? ;-)

 

[kendalcottages]

One question to ask... Is this a left turn? Lets look into when these are used. At junctions where you can only turn one way. From the photo, this is a bend in the road and not a junction. In which case there should be a no right turn sign.

It is just a bend in the road, gaz, yes.

 

[domd1979]

What's a local bus? ;-)

A public service vehicle running a registered local bus service (i.e. a timetabled service, rather than say a coach running a day trip).

 

[domd1979]

One question to ask... Is this a left turn? Lets look into when these are used. At junctions where you can only turn one way. From the photo, this is a bend in the road and not a junction. In which case there should be a no right turn sign.

The road does turn left - the arrow can only mean one thing. All the absence of give-way markings do is give priority to traffic on the main road. A no right turn sign would be ambiguous because there are two possible right turns. There is only one possible left movement.

 

[thomas]

What's a local bus? ;-)

Someone with 6 fingers on one hand and completely webbed toes....or that's what they are around these parts

 

[gaz]

Look again, there are two junctions and you have answered your own question.

The road does turn left - the arrow can only mean one thing. All the absence of give-way markings do is give priority to traffic on the main road. A no right turn sign would be ambiguous because there are two possible right turns. There is only one possible left movement.

Let me clarify what i meant.

A left turn only sign, is normally used where you come to a junction that you have to stop at and you have choices about which way to go. As this is a bend in the road, and unless you are turning off it, then you would continue around to the left. Due to the two turnings on the right and 'straight' ahead are side roads. a no right turn sign would be more applicable in this situation, it would give a clear signal to what you can't do and not require someone to think as much.

 

[domd1979]

Let me clarify what i meant.

A left turn only sign, is normally used where you come to a junction that you have to stop at and you have choices about which way to go. As this is a bend in the road, and unless you are turning off it, then you would continue around to the left. Due to the two turnings on the right and 'straight' ahead are side roads. a no right turn sign would be more applicable in this situation, it would give a clear signal to what you can't do and not require someone to think as much.

Where in here does it suggest use of the left turn sign is wrong....?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf

 

[domd1979]

Due to the two turnings on the right and 'straight' ahead are side roads. a no right turn sign would be more applicable in this situation, it would give a clear signal to what you can't do and not require someone to think as much.

No, the priorities mean that there are two right turns.

How does the left turn sign require a lot of thinking - there's only one option unless you're a local bus.

 

[HLaB]

Two minor roads intersect with this bend in the road though, so it a junction.

 

[Noodley]

Okay, puts on ex-Policeman head for a wee while: I think there is sufficient ambiguity to highlight it is a 'problem'. Would I have issued a FPN? No.

Whilst I appreciate a no right turn sign would be confusing I feel there is a duty to make clear to road users what the intention of the sign is. In this case it is not clear enough IMO. I take it from the picture that road users can turn into both streets if approaching from the opposite direction? Even that is unclear...

...and the road does not turn left.

It's a bit of a muddle.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I'd have been a bit miffed to get a FPN.

 

[Over The Hill]

No, they didn't. And with all due respect, you are making reference to what's on Streetview, not what's on the ground today. When I posted that link, I did emphasise:



The blue sign in the photo is NOT repeated further back and there is NOT a "no right turn" red circle.

I am not saying I'm not to blame. I'm just saying that I don't feel that the junction is as clear as it could be.

So what does it now say on the sign that is back a bit that had the red circle "no entry" sign on it across the road you were going up?

 

[gaz]

Where in here does it suggest use of the left turn sign is wrong....?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf

Whilst that is an interesting read, none of it applies to the junction in hand. As you've seen, we have a bend in the road, and two side roads. The road leads around to the left with one side road being ahead. It would simplify this whole debate, and road layout, if there was a no right turn sign as well. Agree of disagree?

I'm not saying this doesn't make sense, down to one persons interpretation of this at the time, they were lead to a FPN, which if there was a sign saying no right turn, they wouldn't have got.

 

[domd1979]

Okay, puts on ex-Policeman head for a wee while: I think there is sufficient ambiguity to highlight it is a 'problem'. Would I have issued a FPN? No.

Whilst I appreciate a no right turn sign would be confusing I feel there is a duty to make clear to road users what the intention of the sign is. In this case it is not clear enough IMO. I take it from the picture that road users can turn into both streets if approaching from the opposite direction? Even that is unclear...

...and the road does not turn left.

It's a bit of a muddle.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I'd have been a bit miffed to get a FPN.

I'm not going to get into the FPN-or-not debate, but how is there any ambiguity or muddle? The sign says turn left, the road goes round 90 degrees to the left (which is a left turn!!!), there is only one left option, there is a whacking great left arrow in the road, the driver ought to be able to decide if they're at the wheel of a bus or not. I don't see the problem. No right turn signs would be ambiguous because there are two possible right turns.

 

[domd1979]

Whilst that is an interesting read, none of it applies to the junction in hand.

Figure 4.5 for one. There's plenty of guidance there to apply, the manual can never cover every possible variation of junction priority.

As you've seen, we have a bend in the road, and two side roads. The road leads around to the left with one side road being ahead.

Nope, the priority markings mean there are two right turns....

It would simplify this whole debate, and road layout, if there was a no right turn sign as well. Agree of disagree?

There are two right turns!!!! There is only one left movement. It ain't difficult....!!

which if there was a sign saying no right turn, they wouldn't have got.

In this instance the defence would be to say you thought it was no right turn into whichever of the two you weren't turning into...

 

[Rezillo]

Just to add some pedantry, according to:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu.../@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070642.pdf

the sign means 'turn left ahead', not 'turn left' which has a different sign. How far in front is ahead?

John