In praise of titanium - and Spa Cycles

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OP
OP
Pale Rider

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Oh, by the way Pale Rider, congrats on the new bike, it looks like a corker.

Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic.

I started the tyre derailment, but I think we can now continue that in a separate thread if we need to.

As regards the new bike, decision not yet finally made.

But I don't intend to test anything else, so if I'm having a drop bar bike - a big change from the bikes I have - it will almost certainly be an Adventure.
 
Location
Loch side.
Yebbut, you've already conceded (I think?) that titanium is strong and light, so why is that a bad thing for bikes, but a good thing for aircraft (the latter point you've said isn't a sensible comparison, but I don't follow the argument why)

OK, titanium is difficult to work with, and may not be readily available in the tubing you'd ideally choose, but neither of these points make the material itself unsuitable.
Prof. I didn't concede that titanium is strong or light. I simply place it right between the other two frame metals in terms of strength and density (weight). Strong is subjective as is light.
Who said aircraft are built from titanium? Not me. In fact, I doubt any aircraft is made from titanium. These things, just like cars or bicycles, are generally made from a variety of materials. Aluminium, carbon fibre, steel and indeed titanium can be found in most of them. I, apparently have some titanium bolts in my Campagnolo brake calipers. It doesn't mean that my bike is made from titanium. Same for the fictitious aeroplane. The argument of why titanium is good for a hypothetical airoplane and thus good for a bicycle is drawing non-existent parallels. We can't argue like that in engineering. By analogy, I can say the Spruce Goose was built from birch, therefore it should be good enough for a bicycle. The Spruce Goose was indeed one of the largest aircraft ever built. Or, I could say that I like ice cream and because you're also a male homo sapiens, you also like ice cream. That is a fallacy and not a sensible comparison. Someone threw that one at me but for me to now go and build an argument listing all the components that are suitable for aircraft use and then try and project them onto bicycles is futile. He will nitpick and build a strawman quicker than I can say "grumpy." That's why I rather said it is not a valid argument and invite the proponent of that argument then break the case down into detail, which he is clearly not going to do.

As for your last point: if any material is more difficult to work with than steel/alu/carbon, is more expensive, is less reliable and tubing in the right sizes are not available (they mostly are for certain style bikes) and it cannot conform to the demands of modern frame styling, I like to think the material is unsuitable. Beryllium for instance, can also be used to build frames. However, it needs to be manufactured in an environment where no-one must come into contact with fumes given off when it is heated or even just machined. That makes it an inappropriate material for the job. We can get the same job done better, using different materials.

I hate using this one because it smacks of call to authority, but if ti was so great why aren't the pro's using it? I'll redeem myself for asking it because I think I have answered that question adequately.

Prof, have you done the design-a-pen mind experiment yet? What is your chosen material?
 

midlife

Guru
SR71 Blackbird was predominately titanium :smile:

I used to polish a Speedwell frame hanging up in the bike shop in the 70's. Never wanted a Speedwell then but would like to have one now ....

Shaun
 
Location
Loch side.
Their comments with regards to rolling resistance make sense, and seem to be accurate. A narrower tyre with a smaller surface area will have a greater force than a wider tyre, with the same inflation pressure, the narrower tyre will have more deformation. It is the deformation that determines how well a tyre rolls.

But note, even they say that if you run the narrower tyre at a higher pressure they can roll the same. There are many variables, and I will concede my comment was a little too general.
I have seen a test done by Jobst Brandt with various tyres rolling on a steel drum and the test confirmed that for a given tyre casing design, wider has less rolling resistance. The test also showed that inflating a tyre harder does reduce rolling resistance (we knew that) but that it is a case of diminishing returns. At 10 Bar you may as well chew rocks, the tyre is so hard that it is uncomfortable but it doesn't improve RR.

BTW, it is not so much the deformation from inflation that produces the rolling resistance but the hysteresis in the casing. For the same deformation but different casing design you will get different RR values. I just wanted to define "deformation". It is the deformation in the rubber and flex in casing material that matters. .
 
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Location
Loch side.
http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/enigma-excel-review-1492.html

"Most titanium frames are made from 3AL-2.5V tubing ........."

I am not sure what your point is but I would not quote a magazine that writes this type of tripe.:

"The Excel quickly picks up speed and takes little encouragement to accelerate to cruising pace, from where it rolls along with ease, responding readily to extra pressure on the pedals."

Or this corker: "
Strength has never been a concern with titanium (it’s tough as nails) but the increased strength and stiffness of 6Al-4V means Enigma have been able ...."

Nails are not tough when talking in engineering terms, so this frame is made from soft stuff. Or they're lying...or, the irony of the metaphor escapes them.
Anyway, bicycle magazines are very poor sources of science education.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Rotational forces in excess of 2-3Gs hey? There are lots of big words in that sentence of yours, but lets stick to the questions you ask.

Weakness? Strong enough is strong enough. Aluminium is 100 times cheaper but still strong enough. Therefore it is more appropriate. For instance, you could make your yellow Bic pen from ti insteak of yellow plastic - it would be much, much stronger. but why? By asking why strong is not better, you first have to point out where the other materials are not strong enough for their application in bicycles.
Too soft? Who mentioned material hardness? Where did you get that from. Red herring.
Too heavy when formed? Who mentioned a weight penalty when formed? Red herring.

Your argument is weak and your hostility exposes your ignorance of the topic.

I'm sorry YS, but I still can't follow your logic. Your first post said, and I am paraphrasing / inferring than ali, steel and ti are all the same strength for a given weight. Surely that can't be right can it? (your phrase was along the lines twice as strong but double the weight ). Strong enough - well yes, but lighter for a given strength is a valid goal surely? Not a key issue with the pen thing
 

Smurfy

Naturist Smurf
Most steel bikes have lugged frames which are brazed at low temperatures, with all the usual crack propagation issues sorted out.
Can you name any manufacturers that are currently mass producing lugged steel frames?
 
Location
Loch side.
I'm sorry YS, but I still can't follow your logic. Your first post said, and I am paraphrasing / inferring than ali, steel and ti are all the same strength for a given weight. Surely that can't be right can it? (your phrase was along the lines twice as strong but double the weight ). Strong enough - well yes, but lighter for a given strength is a valid goal surely? Not a key issue with the pen thing
I just don't see that in my first post. Care to quote directly?
 
Location
Loch side.
here you go:
"It is half as strong as steel but half as heavy. It is twice as strong as aluminium, but twice as heavy"

maybe you meant something else -
No, that does not mean that they are all the same strength for a given weight. I simply placed Titanium on a scale of strength against steel and aluminium - in the middle somewhere, and then on another scale, density, against the same materials, where it also ended up in the middle. It means that it fall in-between the other materials and has no super strength properties like always inferred.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
No, that does not mean that they are all the same strength for a given weight. I simply placed Titanium on a scale of strength against steel and aluminium - in the middle somewhere, and then on another scale, density, against the same materials, where it also ended up in the middle. It means that it fall in-between the other materials and has no super strength properties like always inferred.

you've really lost me now - all yours mate
 
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