In praise of titanium - and Spa Cycles

[DanZac]

Fully agree with your points there @Yellow Saddle however whilst no frame (and not many materials) will be flexible in the vertical (compressive direction) there is plenty of vertical flex available through both the fork and rear stays which are in theory acting in the longitudinal plain which is not acting in compression and is therefore far easier to flex (like flexing the frame from side to side). Possibly (although I suspect that you may prove me wrong as it is not my area of expertise) like the big manufactures are trying to achieve by putting dampers and flex points at the top of the stays on their (Roubaix / cobbles branded frames).

Appologies @Pale Rider for high jacking you thread.

 

[Profpointy]

Whilst I do agree that tyres will flex far more than frames,

Rotational forces in excess of 2-3Gs hey? There are lots of big words in that sentence of yours, but lets stick to the questions you ask.

Weakness? Strong enough is strong enough. Aluminium is 100 times cheaper but still strong enough. Therefore it is more appropriate. For instance, you could make your yellow Bic pen from ti insteak of yellow plastic - it would be much, much stronger. but why? By asking why strong is not better, you first have to point out where the other materials are not strong enough for their application in bicycles.
Too soft? Who mentioned material hardness? Where did you get that from. Red herring.
Too heavy when formed? Who mentioned a weight penalty when formed? Red herring.

Your argument is weak and your hostility exposes your ignorance of the topic.

Don't quite follow the argument - surely "light but strong" is a good thing for bicycles just as it is for planes.
But not particularly biros.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Fully agree with your points there @Yellow Saddle however whilst no frame (and not many materials) will be flexible in the vertical (compressive direction) there is plenty of vertical flex available through both the fork and rear stays which are in theory acting in the longitudinal plain which is not acting in compression and is therefore far easier to flex (like flexing the frame from side to side). Possibly (although I suspect that you may prove me wrong as it is not my area of expertise) like the big manufactures are trying to achieve by putting dampers and flex points at the top of the stays on their (Roubaix / cobbles branded frames).

Appologies @Pale Rider for high jacking you thread.

There is no vertical flex through the fork - even a curved one. If you have ever hammered a headset race onto a fork you will know that it is rock solid. No road incident mimics a headset installation.
Yes, a truss is laterally flexible and that's why the chain rubs when you pedal hard - on all bikes. The design does not allow that flex to improve move from steel to carbon. Besides, that's not where comfort comes from.
There is zero compliance in the rear triangle. It is a triangle.
Spez dampers - now there's the biggest folly I've seen in a long time. They called them "zerts" IIRC but in engineering they have no known function and cannot, even theoretically, dampen any vibration. it was a great marketing trick though. I think Spez discontinuted them and no other manufacturer duplicated the dupe.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Whilst I do agree that tyres will flex far more than frames,



Don't quite follow the argument - surely "light but strong" is a good thing for bicycles just as it is for planes.
But not particularly biros.

Light but strong is good, but the point I make is that strong enough is strong enough. Aluminium is lighter, but still strong enough. Why go stronger but heavier? The extra strength is not needed.

 

[Andy_R]

It sounds like a nice bike.
As for the "titanium ride". That was purely due to the particular bike configuration. An aluminium, steel or carbon frame with the same wheels, tyres and other components would have felt the same.

utter bollox. You obviously do not actually ride bikes..Alu bikes are very rigid and unforgiving, Steel frames flex and spring, carbon - I can't comment on as I don't have experience as a rider.

 

[Profpointy]

Light but strong is good, but the point I make is that strong enough is strong enough. Aluminium is lighter, but still strong enough. Why go stronger but heavier? The extra strength is not needed.

why would you go stronger but heavier - surely if the material is stronger you use less of it

 

[Smurfy]

The section entitled 'Metallurgy for Cyclists' is worth a read.

http://pelotonmagazine.com/wisdom/materials-and-construction-part-i/

 

[winjim]

OK, I'll praise titanium. When oxidized, it makes great white paint pigment. It is also a fantastic metal for dental and orthotic implants because bone bonds very nicely to it and of course, it doesn't corrode.

Variable oxidation states make it a handy reducing agent, and its d-d electron transitions absorb visible wavelengths giving it some rather pretty colours.

 

[Booyaa]

I think it looks cracking, it is almost tempting me to look at Ti frames now!

 

[Tail End Charlie]

I have a titanium bike, although not a Spa one, and am very pleased with it. However I do think any vibration soaking characteristic is due to the wheels and tyres more than the frame material.
That said, I would buy another titanium frame, if in the market for a new bike.
I can also give a thumbs up to Spa, they are a friendly bunch, very knowledgeable and won't sell you something you don't need. Their wheelbuilds are excellent.
Whatever you get, you'll have a whale of a time on.

 

[Venod]

I have had 4 Titanium Frames (still have 2) The first one I sold to friend in a moment of weakness, (it still looks & rides like new at 20+ years old) the second one I bought of ebay it was super light with double butted tubes, this one cracked but not at a weld, it cracked at the butting transition (very thin tubing) as it was second hand the frame builder couldn't offer me a replacement frame but did offer a generous discount off a new one if I returned the cracked frame to him so he could investigate the failure.
As I was familiar with working with titanium and knowing what a super metal it was (the reason I bought Ti) I decided I could repair the crack, a friend a t work was the best Ti welder I know so he welded it for me, we had all the facilities for weld examination and the weld passed with flying colours, in the meantime I bought a carbon frame and put all the bits from the Ti on it, so I built the welded up to run fixed & ran it for 2 years before selling it, I think its back on gears now & still running.

The carbon was a decent bike, but the ride with exactly the same components that were on the Ti wasn't as good and just as heavy, so it had to go, the 2Ti I have now are a dream to ride both very light, a lot easier to keep looking good than a painted frame, (why add the weight of paint & lacquer when its not needed) I also have 2 aluminium frames these are decent frames but again not as forgiving as Ti,

The Spa Ti looks a comfortable frame & if you like it I would say get it as long as you are happy with the ride, Ti frames can be made stiff but I don't think Spa is one of them.

The bottom bracket & head tube are just tubes because that's all you need, IMO they look a lot better than the over sized ones on some carbon frames.

Aluminium is not corrosion proof, subject a bare aluminium tube & a bare Ti tube to the elements salt spray etc for a year & see which one survives,

Aluminium seat-posts corrode & expand to stick in the frame, titanium picks up on titanium and if this happens you have a big problem, I have had titanium collars pick up on titanium shafts on several occasions, the trick for both Aluminium & Ti is cleanliness & the right anti scuffing paste, I only use carbon posts in my Ti frames.

Of course the down side is the expense, but in my opinion worth it.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Here's a thought; the way a material absorbs or transmits vibration will also have an impact on how rough or smooth a ride is perceived. Different materials will transmit or absorb shock and vibration differently even if as asserted that a double diamond frame doesn't flex in the vertical plane (and that assumes that the vibration is always applied in the vertical plane).
The other area I think affects ride feel is the interaction between frame and fork - the materials used, the contact area, the solidity if the contact, the angles involved, the compliance of the system and how vibration is propagated from through frame.

I'm not convinced that (carbon apart) that different metals for frames do not feel different ...

 

[ianrauk]

Such a whiff of the Dusty Bins... and we all know how that ended up.

 

[hatler]

I'm a part-time corrosion geek. Ti doesn't corrode (sort of, I'm not going to bother with the specifics). Nor does it fail if you happen to drop your bike and hit one of the tubes on a random rock in an inappropriate place (the frame I mean). Those two rule out steel and carbon. Aluminium ? I'm uneasy with the idea that Al has no lower fatigue limit (all stresses are fatiguing the material). I wanted a bike for life. Ti was the answer.

Seven years in and 3000 miles/year and it's still wonderful. (And it's not rusty.)

 

[Cyclist33]

Such a whiff of the Dusty Bins... and we all know how that ended up.

What?