Organ donors in motion.

[winjim]

When I first read your argument I though it was nonsense. But I'm convinced now. Due to all the Latin.

It does give the post a certain je ne sais quoi.

 

[icowden]

This implies that cyclists should use lights and high viz and if they're not seen it's their own fault.

Honestly, it doesn't imply it, I pretty much stated it outright. I'll say it again if you like. If cyclists are not seen it's their own fault.
We can wish for unicorns such as clever cars that always see cyclists (maybe that will happen once we are all electric?), but all cyclists have to take some responsibility for themselves.

It is absolute fact that cars are heavy lumps of metal which can do serious injury to a cyclist whilst keeping the people in the car completely safe. Of course the driver should be aware and should be looking, but in poor conditions a cyclist should make themselves as visible as possible. Even in good conditions it doesn't hurt to be seen and to make sure you are being seen.

I can't see why you wouldn't want to be seen? You don't have to be illuminated like a Christmas tree, but good lights and some reflective clothing just seems sensible to me, along with exercising caution when approaching difficult situations.

 

[winjim]

Honestly, it doesn't imply it, I pretty much stated it outright. I'll say it again if you like. If cyclists are not seen it's their own fault.
We can wish for unicorns such as clever cars that always see cyclists (maybe that will happen once we are all electric?), but all cyclists have to take some responsibility for themselves.

It is absolute fact that cars are heavy lumps of metal which can do serious injury to a cyclist whilst keeping the people in the car completely safe. Of course the driver should be aware and should be looking, but in poor conditions a cyclist should make themselves as visible as possible. Even in good conditions it doesn't hurt to be seen and to make sure you are being seen.

I can't see why you wouldn't want to be seen? You don't have to be illuminated like a Christmas tree, but good lights and some reflective clothing just seems sensible to me, along with exercising caution when approaching difficult situations.

Jesus Christ.

 

[icowden]

Fairly certain he won't be much help, but you can try,

 

[glasgowcyclist]

DRLs are stupid.

Agreed, I deactivated mine.

If cyclists are not seen it's their own fault.

I think I'm putting it mildly when I say that's a ridiculous statement. Are you a member of the Stockholm CC by any chance?

 

[Milkfloat]

Honestly, it doesn't imply it, I pretty much stated it outright. I'll say it again if you like. If cyclists are not seen it's their own fault.
We can wish for unicorns such as clever cars that always see cyclists (maybe that will happen once we are all electric?), but all cyclists have to take some responsibility for themselves.

It is absolute fact that cars are heavy lumps of metal which can do serious injury to a cyclist whilst keeping the people in the car completely safe. Of course the driver should be aware and should be looking, but in poor conditions a cyclist should make themselves as visible as possible. Even in good conditions it doesn't hurt to be seen and to make sure you are being seen.

I can't see why you wouldn't want to be seen? You don't have to be illuminated like a Christmas tree, but good lights and some reflective clothing just seems sensible to me, along with exercising caution when approaching difficult situations.

Do you also suggest that my daughter does not go out unaccompanied or that she should not wear the clothes she likes? I would like to be putting the pressure on those who commit the crimes to be held accountable rather than the victims.

 

[icowden]

I don't disagree. However there is nothing wrong with taking responsibility for yourself.
You can put the pressure on those who commit the crimes to be held accountable all you like, but you can also take steps to keep yourself safe and reduce risk. When life isn't what you want it to be, you have to compromise a little, see things from both sides.

I have seen many cyclists taking no regard for their personal safety by riding without lights at dusk / after dark, wearing nothing reflective and riding a dark bicycle. So in daylight, of course you are more visible, but if the weather changes? It's not always bright and sunny. It's not always bright and sunny for a whole ride.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

A person cycling in normal clothes is visible to anyone who cares to look.


If a driver isn't looking then it won't matter how much you try to look like a spaceship...

 

[Crackle]

I don't disagree. However there is nothing wrong with taking responsibility for yourself.
You can put the pressure on those who commit the crimes to be held accountable all you like, but you can also take steps to keep yourself safe and reduce risk. When life isn't what you want it to be, you have to compromise a little, see things from both sides

I doubt that's the only thing you do though and I would argue hi viz and lights are not even close to the most important thing keeping you safe. Blind faith in being seen because you have those things is foolhardy, which is why I bet it isn't the thing you most rely on. Instead I'm willing to bet that your own observation, reading situations, road position and experience plays a greater part.

I have seen many cyclists taking no regard for their personal safety by riding without lights at dusk / after dark, wearing nothing reflective and riding a dark bicycle. So in daylight, of course you are more visible, but if the weather changes? It's not always bright and sunny. It's not always bright and sunny for a whole ride

Exactly, you've seen them and therefore just defeated your own logic. My experience of not being seen is exactly that, I've not been seen and this has happened riding with and without lights, on a bike, on a motorbike, in a car, in a van, the commonality is, the person in the other vehicle didn't see me and they didn't see me because they weren't looking properly and nothing will mitigate for that other than reading the situation and knowing it might happen and even then it might not be enough, Hi viz and lights are not even vaguely relevant in that situation.

 

[Markymark]

I don't disagree. However there is nothing wrong with taking responsibility for yourself.
You can put the pressure on those who commit the crimes to be held accountable all you like, but you can also take steps to keep yourself safe and reduce risk. When life isn't what you want it to be, you have to compromise a little, see things from both sides.

I have seen many cyclists taking no regard for their personal safety by riding without lights at dusk / after dark, wearing nothing reflective and riding a dark bicycle. So in daylight, of course you are more visible, but if the weather changes? It's not always bright and sunny. It's not always bright and sunny for a whole ride.

Which body armour do you wear to avoid being stabbed?

 

[icowden]

I don't but I do take sensible precautions to avoid putting myself in a position where I might get stabbed.

Lets flip this. What are the perceived benefits of not bothering to be seen, and what are the disbenefits of wearing reflective clothing etc? So far the only argument I have seen is "lights and reflective gear is pointless and stupid". Is that it?

 

[icowden]

I doubt that's the only thing you do though and I would argue hi viz and lights are not even close to the most important thing keeping you safe. Blind faith in being seen because you have those things is foolhardy, which is why I bet it isn't the thing you most rely on. Instead I'm willing to bet that your own observation, reading situations, road position and experience plays a greater part.


Exactly, you've seen them and therefore just defeated your own logic.

Not really, I have often seen people when I am cycling but I am far less likely to see them until the very last minute if I am driving, especially if there is oncoming traffic and it is dark. When cycling I don't get reflection and I am not in danger of hitting the person. In a car i am going faster, so reaction time is much reduced.

I can only see and react to things in front of me. I very much want to make sure than anything big and heavy behind me can see me. I like life.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

What are the perceived benefits of not bothering to be seen?

I'm visible. I don't need to 'bother to be seen', people need to bother to look where they're going. FFS.

 

[Crackle]

I can only see and react to things in front of me.

I bet that's not completely true either. I'm quite often aware of what's behind me or what's coming up, this is particularly the case on roads or in situations I don't completely trust people to have seen me, I bet you are too.

No one is saying that lights and reflective materials don't have a place or a use. I have lights on my bike all the time, I don't use them all the time because I don't see them as some magic bullet, I prefer to rely on my wits and my senses and supplement them occasionally as the situation dictates.

 

[Markymark]

I don't but I do take sensible precautions to avoid putting myself in a position where I might get stabbed.

Lets flip this. What are the perceived benefits of not bothering to be seen, and what are the disbenefits of wearing reflective clothing etc? So far the only argument I have seen is "lights and reflective gear is pointless and stupid". Is that it?

What are the sensible precautions you take not to be stabbed,