Over powered bikes that are resticted.

[Dadam]

These reductivist arguments really aren't helpful.

It's really not a binary choice between having to put in lots of effort to get up hills or getting a moped. The OP was asking about illegal ebikes for his commute. I entered this debate by constructively trying to help the OP understand that there are bikes meeting current EAPC rules that would be fine for his use case and giving a couple of real world examples (mine).

The emission free transport argument is completely valid. We need more people to ditch the cars and there are a lot of people who live in hilly areas, or who are unfit or lack mobility who might potentially bike more if they could get where they're going without a huge effort. But what I'm saying is that middle ground is where EAPCs sit, and they don't need to get an illegal moped as many (not all) compliant EAPC bikes would be perfect.

Additionally, people who buy ebikes tend to ride more and further, and most will end up getting fitter as a result even if they're "not putting in much effort"

 

[phil-b]

There's nothing stopping people going out and getting their CBT and purchasing a registered and compliant electric moped or motorbike, and getting it insured through an insurance company that provides an actual schedule and certificate, anyone trying to put themselves in the nowhere-land between EAPC and Electric mopeds are not going to find any loopholes that will get them their desired outcome of an easy life riding their ill-conceived motorised bike-shaped object, free from responsibility or accountability.

it is legal to buy car car capable of 200mph but that does not mean you are exempt from responsibility or accountability. you still have to drive it within the law

 

[Dadam]

Thr 85NM claims are laughable - that's small car levels of torque.

Or a cordless drill

 

[youngoldbloke]

Or a cordless drill

Can well believe it - took months for a very painful 'trigger finger' injury to clear up after a drill bit seized in a deep hole I was drilling in concrete and I foolishly tried to hang on to the now rotating drill body - and that was a much less powerful DeWalt

 

[rogerzilla]

Or a cordless drill

Or a fairly light or weak cyclist. Even if I don't pull up the other pedal, and only stand on one pedal, that's 132Nm. I would have thought over 150Nm is pretty normal when climbing a steep hill.

 

[Dadam]

Or a fairly light or weak cyclist. Even if I don't pull up the other pedal, and only stand on one pedal, that's 132Nm. I would have thought over 150Nm is pretty normal when climbing a steep hill.

That’s where things get complicated. Torque is multiplied by rpm to get power. The aforementioned small car will be developing that torque at 5000 or 6000 rpm to give orders of magnitude more power than the ebike so it isn’t remotely comparable.

 

[rogerzilla]

That’s where things get complicated. Torque is multiplied by rpm to get power. The aforementioned small car will be developing that torque at 5000 or 6000 rpm to give orders of magnitude more power than the ebike so it isn’t remotely comparable.

I didn't start it :-)

Torque is always irrelevant given adequate gearing, unless you want to hang into a higher gear for some reason (the diesel driver's reason). On a fixie - where you have no control over gearing - torque is the limiting factor when hill climbing, but that's a marginal use case!

 

[CXRAndy]

Legal e-bikes are still terrifyingly fast uphil

That's quite an overstatement. Travelling at 15mph up an incline is steady, like it is on the flat.

 

[CXRAndy]

I would say to the OP get whatever bike you want. Don't ride like a knob at any time and you can enjoy your 500/1000/1500 Watt bike.

Having more torque really flattens all hills and headwinds. Making a commute a doddle re sweating up

 

[phil-b]

I would say to the OP get whatever bike you want. Don't ride like a knob at any time and you can enjoy your 500/1000/1500 Watt bike.

Having more torque really flattens all hills and headwinds. Making a commute a doddle re sweating up

thats how it should be. you can ride dangerously on a push bike. if you ride correctly nobody is ever going to look at your bike. but I guess the law is the law (untill it gets changed).

 

[chris667]

@phil-b - my bike, plus me, plus luggage (130KG/23 stone) can get me up any hill where I live in the Peak District. It's a 250w Shengyi DWG22C with a 48v battery bought from Whoosh, who have really good support and spares.. It has a granny ring though, I use all the gears that I would if I was riding unpowered. Range is about 25-40 miles for me depening on effort and terrain, but because I am probably bigger and heavier than you I would expect you would get more out of a battery charge. Enough for several days of commuting at a guess, but it's not exact.

I can get as low as 6mph on full assist going up the steepest hill I regularly ride (7%) if I'm tired and not wanting to put in effort, but I am an experienced cyclist and I always need to choose the right gear. I can make myself throw up with effort still if I choose to - if I did that I would be as tired at the end of the ride as I would if I went on a normal bike. I don't get sweaty, I can just be spinning the pedals at lowest speed and relaxing.

Here's a thing, though - my ebike has made me fitter to the point where I probably won't replace it when it dies. I love my touring bike, and there is a pleasing lack of things to think about - so long as you keep it clean and adjusted, a pedal bike is just nicer to own and I don't need to worry about theft. However, that's my personal choice - for people who are indifferent there's nothing intrinsically wrong with deciding to stay with an ebike. If something changed with me medically, I'd certainly go to an ebike so I can keep enjoying cycling until I'm really old.

So to answer your question, there are lots of legal ebike conversion kits that will do exactly what you want but you want to do your homework and pick the right one before spending money. I started with a road legal "storm" ebike which had a 250w Bafang front hub and Nuvinci rear gub. The hub was too high geared to get up the hills round here and it was only a 36v battery and Bafang hub which had less torque. The system I have now has lower internal gearing in the hub and a 48v battery alongside the normal MTB triple. For hills, you may wish to choose something similar but do give Whoosh a call first, they are real experts.

Now, to answer your question about bikes that don't meet the legislation. I am dead set against them. Yes you can choose to ride at lower speed, but many(most?) people won't and that's not fair on those who you share cycling infrastructure with. I think the arguments about being able to "power yourself out of trouble" are nonsense really.

 

[DRHysted]

Legal e-bikes are still terrifyingly fast uphill.

This quote reminds me of a snatch of conversation I overheard whilst jogging over my local single lane toll bridge (Eling, mentioned in the Doomsday Book). One old lady said to the one next to her “the cyclists just fly over here, it’s scary”.
After hearing that I took note of what speeds I cycled and drove, and watched others. My cycling and driving speeds are normally within about 5 mph of each other, it’s true that if there’s no oncoming traffic you can enter the tool bridge quicker on a bike, due to the width restrictions. So my conclusion is that it’s the appearance of speed from the smaller vehicle making it “fly”.
Which leads me to question how a vehicle doing 15.5mph can be terrifyingly fast?

 

[chris667]

Which leads me to question how a vehicle doing 15.5mph can be terrifyingly fast?

As you get older, you get slower and injuries take much longer to heal.

If you're worried that you might not be able to get out of the way of someone approaching you silently at running speed, don't you think it's reasonable to find that frightening?

I can tell you as a lifelong cyclist that I have often felt worried by cars doing 30mph, or 15mph over the speed I was doing.

 

[Mike_P]

If riding an illegal ebike it helps to disguise yourself as much as possible even if the temperature is in the low 20s - passed this evening on a cyclepath

 

[ianrauk]

If riding an illegal ebike it helps to disguise yourself as much as possible even the temperatue is in the low 20s - passed this evening on a cyclepath
View attachment 703228

A common sight in London