Over powered bikes that are resticted.

[Slick]

To compare an ebike to the fitness or lack thereof to any cyclist, commuter or otherwise is quite frankly, ridiculous.

 

[Dadam]

letting untested, untrained users loose on powered vehicles that are approaching motorbike/car speeds without ANY controls or restrictions is not going to end well.

Straw man argument. 15.5 mph is far from "motorbike/car speeds"

the self propelled cyclist has a very physical and acute awareness of the effort required to reach and maintain a higher speed so usually treats it with much more respect and caution.

Reads like gatekeeping to me.

If an ebike is faster than a moderately fit cyclist then it is almost certainly not legal, as per the_mikey's description above.

This bit is just such utter cobblers. Both my unmodified, legal ebikes will very comfortably exceed what I can manage uphill on my own. On my commute home is what Strava deem a cat 4 climb. It's just over a mile and averages 4.7%, with a nasty little 9-10% section in the middle. On my manual bike I could get up it but was averaging about 8 mph and down to 5 or 6 mph on the steep section. On the Gain I do it averaging 12, on the Cube, 14 mph.

 

[NickWi]

Well that is what a lot of people want one for - so they can go up hills as easily - and quickly - as they can ride on the flat.

Actually what I think a lot of people that push for more power / speed want is all the freedom & advantages of a bicycle, but with the performance of a moped (speed, a throttle, no pedalling etc. What they don't want are any of the pesky disadvantages like, tax, mot, insurance, having to wear a motorcycle helmet and everything that goes with own & operating a mechanically propelled vehicle on the road.

You can buy an electric moped for under a grand, CBT

 

[NickWi]

I already have third party insurance through Cycling UK whan riding normal bikes and wouldnt hesitate in checking and upgrading my insurance to cover more powerful bikes.

Cycling UK insurance FAQs question 3 says yes, ebikes are covers but "Where the main source of propulsion is electrical, the cycle would not be covered as it would be classified as a motor vehicle and should therefore have Road Traffic Act insurance. However, if it has pedals and is mainly used as a conventional bicycle (list of types) and only has electric assistance then it would be covered."
I read that as if you have a throttle then arguably the main source of propulsion is likely to electrical and you won't be covered, which is reinforced with the comment that if you only have electrical assistance you're covered. There is not option via Cycling UK to upgrade, so you would a have to take out specific motor insurance.

This leads to a second point, but it's going off topic. People who have older ebikes with throttles, (which were legal at the time), how does that work with Cycling UK. Has anyone queried it?

 

[classic33]

Cycling UK insurance FAQs question 3 says yes, ebikes are covers but "Where the main source of propulsion is electrical, the cycle would not be covered as it would be classified as a motor vehicle and should therefore have Road Traffic Act insurance. However, if it has pedals and is mainly used as a conventional bicycle (list of types) and only has electric assistance then it would be covered."
I read that as if you have a throttle then arguably the main source of propulsion is likely to electrical and you won't be covered, which is reinforced with the comment that if you only have electrical assistance you're covered. There is not option via Cycling UK to upgrade, so you would a have to take out specific motor insurance.

This leads to a second point, but it's going off topic. People who have older ebikes with throttles, (which were legal at the time), how does that work with Cycling UK. Has anyone queried it?

If bought before the date in the current regulations, then you'd be covered, as it meets the current regulations on the age side.

 

[Drago]

The regs are not retrospective. Ebikes that were manufacturer pre 2016 and which were legal then are still legal now. Legally, they are bicycles.

 

[I like Skol]

Straw man argument. 15.5 mph is far from "motorbike/car speeds"



Reads like gatekeeping to me.



This bit is just such utter cobblers. Both my unmodified, legal ebikes will very comfortably exceed what I can manage uphill on my own. On my commute home is what Strava deem a cat 4 climb. It's just over a mile and averages 4.7%, with a nasty little 9-10% section in the middle. On my manual bike I could get up it but was averaging about 8 mph and down to 5 or 6 mph on the steep section. On the Gain I do it averaging 12, on the Cube, 14 mph.

Great, so we are in agreement then? A legally compliant ebike with the present power limit and assistance cut off speed is more than adequate. There really is no need to increase this, because that is what it seems many ebike owners and potential owners are pushing for?

 

[Dadam]

Great, so we are in agreement then? A legally compliant ebike with the present power limit and assistance cut off speed is more than adequate. There really is no need to increase this, because that is what it seems many ebike owners and potential owners are pushing for?

Um, I’ve never suggested otherwise, so we’re in agreement with that part. Some owners may be pushing for it, but I’m not. A smidge higher cutoff speed would be nice but any changes would probably have consequences, such as other restrictions so I’m of the mind to leave it alone.

It was the blanket assertion that any bike that is faster than a moderately fit cyclist is “almost certainly“ illegal that I took exception to.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

You mean that which he had written.

View: https://youtu.be/M_et8_f4ork

 

[classic33]

Straw man argument. 15.5 mph is far from "motorbike/car speeds"

Reads like gatekeeping to me.

This bit is just such utter cobblers. Both my unmodified, legal ebikes will very comfortably exceed what I can manage uphill on my own. On my commute home is what Strava deem a cat 4 climb. It's just over a mile and averages 4.7%, with a nasty little 9-10% section in the middle. On my manual bike I could get up it but was averaging about 8 mph and down to 5 or 6 mph on the steep section. On the Gain I do it averaging 12, on the Cube, 14 mph.

I would say its getting close to motorbike/car speeds, given the increase in 20mph zones. Even in normal commuting that's faster than stationary cars. Which side do you pass a line of traffic on at that speed?
Then think about that on the left-hand side there may be someone on a "normal" bike, going slower. Where do go when you meet them?

The bike that was mentioned by phil-b, 4" tyres. Have you ever tried riding any bike, with that size tyre, under pedal power alone. It ain't easy. You'll have a softer ride, but even with battery power, you'll be fighting a lot of rolling resistance just getting going. Keeping going is another thing altogether, with pedal power alone.

 

[NickWi]

The regs are not retrospective. Ebikes that were manufacturer pre 2016 and which were legal then are still legal now. Legally, they are bicycles.

If bought before the date in the current regulations, then you'd be covered, as it meets the current regulations on the age side.

The problem here is insurance companies are allow to set there own T&Cs which may be different to a legal requirement. For example some youngster have night time curfews on their car insurance despite the DVLA not placing any restrictions on their licences. In this case it would appear that the insurer is specifically excluded anything other than 'electric assistance' regardless of the bikes otherwise legal status. Frankly, that needs challenging, as you say they're legally bicycles.

 

[classic33]

The problem here is insurance companies are allow to set there own T&Cs which may be different to a legal requirement. For example some youngster have night time curfews on their car insurance despite the DVLA not placing any restrictions on their licences. In this case it would appear that the insurer is specifically excluded anything other than 'electric assistance' regardless of the bikes otherwise legal status. Frankly, that needs challenging, as you say they're legally bicycles.

We're not yet at that level, not far from it but not yet there.
They'd have to prove that the bicycle wasn't legal at the time of any incident. If you're able to prove that it meets current regulations, with regards the date of purchase they'd have problems.

 

[NickWi]

They'd have to prove that the bicycle wasn't legal at the time of any incident. If you're able to prove that it meets current regulations, with regards the date of purchase they'd have problems.

If the incident was serious enough the Police would have grounds to impound & examine the bike. Its status would be easily ascertained and the insurance company being an interested party would get a copy of that report. And let's face it, we all know how insurance companies try to wriggle out of their obligations and if they can prove the bike was illegal, they will use it against you.

With regards to any regulations that were in force at the date of purchase or manufacturing, this has nothing to do with it, it's the insurance company T&Cs that are important. The very fact that point three of their FAQs highlights the fact that they excluding anything other than Power Assistance ought to tell you something. The bottom line is read the T&Cs and if you don't like, don't buy it. (Okay it free with membership, so I'll rephrase that, don't rely in it).

 

[classic33]

If the incident was serious enough the Police would have grounds to impound & examine the bike. Its status would be easily ascertained and the insurance company being an interested party would get a copy of that report. And let's face it, we all know how insurance companies try to wriggle out of their obligations and if they can prove the bike was illegal, they will use it against you.

With regards to any regulations that were in force at the date of purchase or manufacturing, this has nothing to do with it, it's the insurance company T&Cs that are important. The very fact that point three of their FAQs highlights the fact that they excluding anything other than Power Assistance ought to tell you something. The bottom line is read the T&Cs and if you don't like, don't buy it. (Okay it free with membership, so I'll rephrase that, don't rely in it).

They(pre current regulations e-assist legal bikes) are covered. The current regulations, which is what the insurance covers, recognise their legality.

The chances of your bike being impounded by the police after an RTC are low to nigh on nill. They simply don't have the space to store a bike safely without damaging it further. This storage is now contracted out by most police forces.

 

[NickWi]

They(pre current regulations e-assist legal bikes) are covered. The current regulations, which is what the insurance covers, recognise their legality.

Can you point me to a link where they say that please. CUK (or their insurers) say otherwise.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/def...ual_third_party_guidance_note_2022-2023_1.pdf

As for the chances of your bike being impounded, agreed if it's minor it's unlikely, but if the incident is serious enough (remember Charlie Alliston?) or there's lot of money involved, trust me, they will investigate properly and they'll take good care of the bike. It's evidence, the police are good at keeping evidence.