Problems with Bkool

[gbrown]

1. The inertia debate is interesting. I agree that this is likely a software 'issue'. However, it seems a bit tough to me to suggest they disable this, as they clearly are trying to make the experience as close as they can to riding on the road. On the road, if you hit the foot of a 5% slope after descending a 10% slope, you're clearly going to carry more forward momentum into the start of the climb, than if you just clipped in at the door of the climb. Maybe what is needed is a revalidation that the software algorithms are accurately managing this and more closely reflecting inertia, and not overly rewarding Bkool turbos versus other turbos. If this is achieved, then the onus moves more to other vendors to improve the way they handle this issue. In fact, I'd probably extend the review so that the 'fairy dust' issue is at worst properly understood and at best improved to better represent actual road riding experience.

The point with inertia being a "special feature" of the bkool turbos is that there seems no reason for this. Rather than removing inertia, why can it not apply to all turbo's? I can't see any reason why not, as we can't see any hardware specific to the bkool turbos, they just adjust the resistance and therefore speed, and could do this for any resistance controllable trainer.

We had the same argument with gravity assist on descents, with the software simulating the affect of gravity on speed for bkool trainers but not for non-bkool trainers. It took around a year of constant complaints before they fixed this, all the while making it impossible for non-bkool riders to get anywhere close to bkool riders.

It seems the inertia into gradient changes is the same issue, they apply different software algorithms to bkool trainers and non-bkool trainers for no apparent reason, meaning non-bkool users are unable to ride with bkool users, as gradient changes and drafting produce radically different speeds.

There seems no reason for the algorithms to be different, all trainers just apply resistance to pedalling as requested (some are better calibrated than others) by the software, so why not use the same algorithms for them all. It's all down to accepting the importance of giving all your users the same experience, and not treating your own hardware advantageously.

The more even treatment of bkool hardware on Zwift would support this view!

It is noticeable that bkool trainers are generally faster on bkool software, not slower, and generally over rate power and speed, sometimes to ridiculous extents, rather than under rate them.

Perhaps it is just too tempting for companies that produce hardware and software to try and flatter their own hardware. If so, then software only platforms like Zwift will end up with the momentum and eventually the vast majority of users, and the hardware producers will lose most of their software revenue, and end up selling mostly just the hardware!

 

[JJRobinson]

Lot of good points raised already.

In the old version I used to love the ease of joining a live ride (that hadn’t yet started) that was the right distance/gradient I was looking for. It can’t be that hard to get the times working properly so you can see rides in warmup and rides that have started and display them in some sort of logical order!

I often use my phone to review rides and the like. When looking at any stats for the ride, say results, it isn’t possible to scroll within the popup that opens. Annoying and has to be an easy fix!

Other platforms offer multiple users for one subscription (or a small amount extra), that would be nice.

Has the ghost issue (can’t add ghosts of recent attempts to ride) been mentioned?

The issue I think @Breedon was meaning is that old ride attempts can still be challenged (even if you have since bettered the time), and if the challenger beats your time, it will state they have beaten you and send an email. (Apologies if this isn’t what you meant @Breedon)

Cheers

 

[gbrown]

I see on Bkool indoor it is still only possible to see 8 sessions in each category, which is just crazy. Why the limitation.

Anyone who has more than 8 rides in Leagues has to mess around with favourites to get around this seemingly pointless restriction.

 

[Breedon]

Lot of good points raised already.

In the old version I used to love the ease of joining a live ride (that hadn’t yet started) that was the right distance/gradient I was looking for. It can’t be that hard to get the times working properly so you can see rides in warmup and rides that have started and display them in some sort of logical order!

I often use my phone to review rides and the like. When looking at any stats for the ride, say results, it isn’t possible to scroll within the popup that opens. Annoying and has to be an easy fix!

Other platforms offer multiple users for one subscription (or a small amount extra), that would be nice.

Has the ghost issue (can’t add ghosts of recent attempts to ride) been mentioned?

The issue I think @Breedon was meaning is that old ride attempts can still be challenged (even if you have since bettered the time), and if the challenger beats your time, it will state they have beaten you and send an email. (Apologies if this isn’t what you meant @Breedon)

Cheers

That's exactly what I meant thanks for explaining it better

 

[Del C]

The point with inertia being a "special feature" of the bkool turbos is that there seems no reason for this. Rather than removing inertia, why can it not apply to all turbo's? I can't see any reason why not, as we can't see any hardware specific to the bkool turbos, they just adjust the resistance and therefore speed, and could do this for any resistance controllable trainer.

We had the same argument with gravity assist on descents, with the software simulating the affect of gravity on speed for bkool trainers but not for non-bkool trainers. I took around a year of constant complaints before they fixed this, all the while making it impossible for non-bkool riders to get anywhere close to bkool riders.

It seems the inertia into gradient changes is the same issue, they apply different software algorithms to bkool trainers and non-bkool trainers for no apparent reason, meaning non-bkool users are unable to ride with bkool users, as gradient changes and drafting produce radically different speeds.

There seems no reason for the algorithms to be different, all trainers just apply resistance to pedalling as requested (some are better calibrated than others) by the software, so why not use the same algorithms for them all. It's all down to accepting the importance of giving all your users the same experience, and not treating your own hardware advantageously.

It is noticeable that bkool trainers are generally faster on bkool software, not slower, and generally over rate power and speed, sometimes to ridiculous extents, rather than under rate them.

The more even treatment of bkool hardware on Zwift would support this view!

Perhaps it is just too tempting for companies that produce hardware and software to try and flatter their own hardware. If so, then software only platforms like Zwift will end up with the momentum and eventually the vast majority of users, and the hardware producers will lose most of their software revenue, and end up selling mostly just the hardware!

Good points.

I suppose the answer depends on how they have implemented the Inertia feature.

I was assuming this may be partly implemented in firmware in the turbo, responding to gradient control signals from the Sim software. That would imply some sort of gradual change in resistance controlled by the turbo itself. Maybe, I'm trying to be far too clever here......... and this is Bkool after all.

If its purely down to software algorithms, then having different algorithms running in the Sim and sending different results to Bkool and non-Bkool trainers, then I agree this would be daft.

 

[berty bassett]

as requested Paul http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/6402736
the 3d had long patches of constant switchbacks where the grass was chest height so i gave up on that , i watched about 2 mins of video that was so poor i struggled to see the road and ended up just not looking at the screen apart for the numbers
i wish they would concentrate more on quality rather than quantity
i also lost connection twice even though i am now hardwired into virgin 200 meg
the neo reacts completely differently to the pro where hills are concerned - if i pedal like crazy going downhill ( short hills )i get exactly the same speed as when i coast even though the watts are massively ( for me ) different
going up hill , the same again , blue numbers down to about 9mph then slowly creep up to match effort no matter what i do
i should think i have blue numbers about 50% of the time now i dont know if others do ?

 

[bridgy]

Just a quick thanks for all the comments, and an update for you.

Bkool have received the list I've put together - I've tried to limit to the most pressing bugs/issues for now as I didn't want to overwhelm them with too much in one go!

They are very grateful and sound like they really do want to try and improve things - we will see! I am told they have just appointed a new CEO who is a Triathlete and a regular Bkool user, and their priority will be to fix bugs/problems and improve the user experience rather than launch new features or products at this stage. I think we'll mostly agree that sounds like the right priorities!

 

[CXRAndy]

I am told they have just appointed a new CEO who is a Triathlete and a regular Bkool user

Hola, my name is Pep

 

[bridgy]

Hola, my name is Pep

Ha! I never thought of that!!

 

[Breedon]

Hola, my name is Pep

I thought exactly that, perhaps bkool will start to become the thing it SHOULD be an excellent platform.

 

[JuhaL]

I have bit of problems with ant+ signals. Don't know is it coincidence but those problems seems to came up same time when latest update was released and installed. Latest version doesn't find devices what is paired last time, need to pair every time all over again and it still might lost them. I have extension cable and ant+ stick right next to resistance unit. Annoying these toys sometimes. Not such a problems with Zwift or BigringVR ... yet.

 

[Brusgaard]

I have bit of problems with ant+ signals. Don't know is it coincidence but those problems seems to came up same time when latest update was released and installed. Latest version doesn't find devices what is paired last time, need to pair every time all over again and it still might lost them. I have extension cable and ant+ stick right next to resistance unit. Annoying these toys sometimes. Not such a problems with Zwift or BigringVR ... yet.

@JuhaL
It's a known problem with V3.60. V3.61 ("beta") fixes it, and also the smaller problem with not being able to write messages to or paint the road for the riders.

 

[JuhaL]

@JuhaL
It's a known problem with V3.60. V3.61 ("beta") fixes it, and also the smaller problem with not being able to write messages to or paint the road for the riders.

That's a good news. Good to have confirm my suspicions.

 

[Brusgaard]

That's a good news. Good to have confirm my suspicions.

PM me if you want the beta.

 

[Wrigs]

Hi Guys, not sure if this is a unique issue to me but maybe you can comment or steer me in the right direction.

Been on the Bkool Pro 2 for 2 weeks and struggling with a very annoying glitch.

Midway during a ride or workout the resistance will increase on the trainer but the power number will drop to 10% of what i am actually producing (compared to my on bike power meter). The cadence seems to match. This results in an incorrect effort input to the simulator and of course a significant drop off in speed.

It doesn't correct itself until i switch the Trainer off and on again (whilst continuing the simulation ride) which resets the trainer and when it reconnects to the sim accurately matches the power output once more.

This will typically repeat itself during a workout and is particularly problematic on an undulating workout - tends to not be an issue if I am doing an all out climb like Alpe du HueZ.

Any thoughts?