Rear derailleur

[Tangoup51]

It's simply a foil to your assertion that "adjusting your entire drivetrain to work on gears that aren't designed to be used frequently (if not at all) is a bad compromise for the rest. And bad advice." Those were the words you used.

Ironically, I'm not sure you understood what you said yourself. There is obviously no need to adjust the 'entire drive train' (your words) in order to get the drivetrain running in big/big.

I know it isn't an ideal gear (I said as much in my first reply), but it is perfectly usable - unless of course your chain isn't long enough, which is the bit that relates to the OP.

If you want a 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time, run a single-speed on 42mm.

First off, my argument is simple and factually pointed. As I Said - "adjusting your entire drivetrain to work on gears that aren't designed to be used frequently (if not at all) is a bad compromise for the rest."

However, your only reply to that is "it isn't though" - this does nothing to rival against my point, infact you have presented no evidence to counter that point besides "I ride large/large" - Yeah you do! makes no difference to the fact that you shouldn't compromise your gears (or lengthen a chain) to get it working properly there.


There is obviously no need to adjust the 'entire drive train' (your words) in order to get the drivetrain running in big/big.


Not "in order to get the drive train running big/big" - but to "WORK" on running big/big meaning as quietly and efficiently as the rest of your gears. Don't mince my words if you're going to quote them. That's not something you can do with your drivetrain such as the OP has got.


but it is perfectly usable - unless of course your chain isn't long enough, which is the bit that relates to the OP.
So, you're saying your advice to the OP is to lengthen his correctly sized chain so it'd be able to run large/large, and you're going to sit there and tell me That it isnt compromising the rest of the gears?

If you want a 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time, don't crossover your chain and have a correctly sized chain. You want to argue that? Please do.

 

[S-Express]

However, your only reply to that is "it isn't though" - this does nothing to rival against my point, infact you have presented no evidence to counter that point besides "I ride large/large" - Yeah you do! makes no difference to the fact that you shouldn't compromise your gears (or lengthen a chain) to get it working properly there.

I don't see why not. Especially if there is a likelihood that you will hit the big/big combo at some point. You say I presented no evidence - I described a race scenario earlier, which I think is a pretty compelling example. In races (maybe give them a try sometime), there is far more likelihood of hitting big/big by necessity than there is of hitting small/small. The same could even be true of general road riding perhaps. So optimising your drivetrain in anticipation of that eventuality is hardly unreasonable.

If you want a 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time, don't crossover your chain and have a correctly sized chain. You want to argue that? Please do.

I argued it successfully earlier mate - not sure why you are disagreeing with it. 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time means a single speed is the only option. As soon as you move the chain in or out on the rear, you have a less than 100% optimal chain line. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

 

[Tangoup51]

I don't see why not. Especially if there is a likelihood that you will hit the big/big combo at some point. You say I presented no evidence - I described a race scenario earlier, which I think is a pretty compelling example. In races (maybe give them a try sometime), there is far more likelihood of hitting big/big by necessity than there is of hitting small/small. The same could even be true of general road riding perhaps. So optimising your drivetrain in anticipation of that eventuality is hardly unreasonable.



I argued it successfully earlier mate - not sure why you are disagreeing with it. 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time means a single speed is the only option. As soon as you move the chain in or out on the rear, you have a less than 100% optimal chain line. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

People hit the big/big combo accidentally that's why the derailleur is supposed to shift to that gear - No one said anything good about running in that gear.

Why are you so involved with the idea that using big/big is such a good thing you should even compromise your chain length for it? That holds no ground.

Your evidence against that point is poor. You're suggesting you should compromise your chain length to run big/big to the OP, all because you might need it in a "Race" scenario or -- you say commuting!?

I'm now interested to know what places / scenarios you're finding it necessary to go big/big over all the other gear options available, why is it such an important thing to do in racing? Why is it something you should do in commuting? Please extend this information and tell the OP why he should compromise his chain length for this gear. Why should he be in that gear? what does it offer?
Tell him what he'd be sacraficing the longevity of his drive-train for, after all you're the guy who races! you'd know this, right?

Oh and don't worry about the fact the OP probably isn't like you either, tell him why he should compromise his own set up to have what you have.

What even did you present to argue against "If you want a 100% healthy chainline 100% of the time, don't crossover your chain and have a correctly sized chain" the things you said are ridiculous and hold no ground against the things I have said, your only resort is to nit-pick in small clauses of words to find an ounce of logic in what you've said before. I've grown tired of your constant circles.

 

[raleighnut]

If you look at the 2 photographs

Is this still okay or under too much strain?
This is in 52/28:

View attachment 348858

And on 36/11, will it take an extra couple of links:
View attachment 348889

*And yes I know all about chain crossing

Then I'd suggest that is the best compromise chain length possible, it ain't ideal but it's how I'd run it.

 

[Drago]

@Tangoup51 please, please, please desist with the needless use of italics and bold type. I'd dearly love to read your musings, but being dyslexic really struggle with deciphering it.

 

[S-Express]

I'm now interested to know what places / scenarios you're finding it necessary to go big/big over all the other gear options available, why is it such an important thing to do in racing?

Happy to answer that. Because if you have one more gear available on the back, and you need it, you'll use it. Any other option would involve switching to the inner ring and then re-selecting the appropriate ratio further down the block, all of which takes time and probably involves you backing off the power for a lot longer.

Why is it something you should do in commuting?

I don't think anyone said you should do it 'in commuting'. But it may still be appropriate for convenience sake, I suppose it's up to the individual really.

Please extend this information and tell the OP why he should compromise his chain length for this gear. Why should he be in that gear? what does it offer?

All chain lengths are a compromise, by definition. Your entire argument seems to be predicated on his chain length being 'fine' - myself and others happen to think another link would be useful. Given the necessary compromise of any chain length, I would rather have a compromise which favoured big ring/sprocket combos, rather than small/small, which I never use.

If there's anything you still don't get, just ask..

 

[Tangoup51]

Happy to answer that. Because if you have one more gear available on the back, and you need it, you'll use it. Any other option would involve switching to the inner ring and then re-selecting the appropriate ratio further down the block, all of which takes time and probably involves you backing off the power for a lot longer.



I don't think anyone said you should do it 'in commuting'. But it may still be appropriate for convenience sake, I suppose it's up to the individual really.



All chain lengths are a compromise, by definition. Your entire argument seems to be predicated on his chain length being 'fine' - myself and others happen to think another link would be useful. Given the necessary compromise of any chain length, I would rather have a compromise which favoured big ring/sprocket combos, rather than small/small, which I never use.

If there's anything you still don't get, just ask..

Once again, you've walked in circles nit-picking over words whilst not making any valid point.

First off, your explanation of why you need it, is absolute horse. I'm asking in what scenario you find yourself Needing to use that gear, over the other ones available? Infact, tell me your drive train specs so I can show you on a Cadence calculator.


i just checked mine, according to this I get the same speed at the same cadence if i'm in my Large/large as if i was in small/second largest. Funny that huh.
What's even more funny is that using large/large on my bike would mean i'd have to spin past 110+ to even break 12 Mph. So again, I have to ask you what scenario you're using this in over the other gear options?


So, despite a video from park tool saying it's fine and the OP saying it's fine (and would not benefit from an additional link) This isn't enough to subside your arrogance that your opinion is wrong?


You said "In General Road Riding." and i'm referring to the OP, commuting or not - it's not racing and it's something you need to explain to the "general road riders"

You still haven't actually shown me a scenario when you need to use large/large. Seriously, there's no need. You can get the same gear ratio that large/large offers by using the CORRECT gear ratios already offered on your drivetrain.

"All chain lengths are a compromise." Some more than others, esp when people listen to you.


If there's anything to be "got" I don't think asking you would be a wise idea in any scenario.

 

[Tangoup51]

@Drago

Sorry my man I use those fonts to highlight important points, i'll just keep it standard.

 

[S-Express]

First off, your explanation of why you need it, is absolute horse. I'm asking in what scenario you find yourself Needing to use that gear, over the other ones available? Infact, tell me your drive train specs so I can show you on a Cadence calculator.


i just checked mine, according to this I get the same speed at the same cadence if i'm in my Large/large as if i was in small/second largest. Funny that huh.
What's even more funny is that using large/large on my bike would mean i'd have to spin past 110+ to even break 12 Mph. So again, I have to ask you what scenario you're using this in over the other gear options?

I think you've missed the point mate, so I'll have one more try. In a race situation, if you are in 52/23 and you've got one more sprocket left on the rear (ie the 25) and you need to use it, then you DO use it, regardless of what the chainline videos on ParkTools tell you. What you don't do (in a race situation) is sit up, move your chain onto the inner ring and find the equivalent gear inch further down the block, while the rest of the bunch rides on up the road without you (it's a race, so nobody waits). It's the difference between one click and potentially several clicks/missed shifts, dropped chains, or anything else that could go wrong. It's perfectly normal in a race situation, and it's not the worst thing in the world in any other situation either. It's not the ideal way to treat a chain either, but the chain can cope - and if not, it's easily replaced.

Hopefully that's basic common sense, but I'm beginning to wonder. As before, if there's anything else you don't understand, just ask.

 

[raleighnut]

I think you've missed the point mate, so I'll have one more try. In a race situation, if you are in 52/23 and you've got one more sprocket left on the rear (ie the 25) and you need to use it, then you DO use it, regardless of what the chainline videos on ParkTools tell you. What you don't do (in a race situation) is sit up, move your chain onto the inner ring and find the equivalent gear inch further down the block, while the rest of the bunch rides on up the road without you (it's a race, so nobody waits). It's the difference between one click and potentially several clicks/missed shifts, dropped chains, or anything else that could go wrong. It's perfectly normal in a race situation, and it's not the worst thing in the world in any other situation either. It's not the ideal way to treat a chain either, but the chain can cope - and if not, it's easily replaced.

Hopefully that's basic common sense, but I'm beginning to wonder. As before, if there's anything else you don't understand, just ask.

That chain length ain't gonna rip the rear mech off if you select it is it.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I think you've missed the point mate, so I'll have one more try. In a race situation, if you are in 52/23 and you've got one more sprocket left on the rear (ie the 25) and you need to use it, then you DO use it, regardless of what the chainline videos on ParkTools tell you. What you don't do (in a race situation) is sit up, move your chain onto the inner ring and find the equivalent gear inch further down the block, while the rest of the bunch rides on up the road without you (it's a race, so nobody waits). It's the difference between one click and potentially several clicks/missed shifts, dropped chains, or anything else that could go wrong. It's perfectly normal in a race situation, and it's not the worst thing in the world in any other situation either. It's not the ideal way to treat a chain either, but the chain can cope - and if not, it's easily replaced.

Hopefully that's basic common sense, but I'm beginning to wonder. As before, if there's anything else you don't understand, just ask.

I don't think you are going to get far with eloquence and clarity. Look, in 3 years time he'll be 21 and you would have learnt so much more.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

That chain length ain't gonna rip the rear mech off if you select it is it.

I disagree. At that extension there is risk that the tension pulley will derail, jam the return feed and rip the jockey out. The risk increases as the tension pulley wears thinner and the chainstay becomes shorter.

If the rider in question is biased towards the big/big end of the cassette, the tension pulley wears on the left hand side and becomes an asymmetric blade. This shape derails and rides off the chain on the left side and jams. You'll notice that in the big/big combination the angle between the tension pulley and chain is already unfavourable. Add two more risk factors (most chainstays nowadays are pretty short on race bikes) and you have a potential disaster.

 

[Tangoup51]

I think you've missed the point mate, so I'll have one more try. In a race situation, if you are in 52/23 and you've got one more sprocket left on the rear (ie the 25) and you need to use it, then you DO use it, regardless of what the chainline videos on ParkTools tell you. What you don't do (in a race situation) is sit up, move your chain onto the inner ring and find the equivalent gear inch further down the block, while the rest of the bunch rides on up the road without you (it's a race, so nobody waits). It's the difference between one click and potentially several clicks/missed shifts, dropped chains, or anything else that could go wrong. It's perfectly normal in a race situation, and it's not the worst thing in the world in any other situation either. It's not the ideal way to treat a chain either, but the chain can cope - and if not, it's easily replaced.

Hopefully that's basic common sense, but I'm beginning to wonder. As before, if there's anything else you don't understand, just ask.

So, here we are.
Your final conclusion is this....He Needs to add another link to his chain to be able to shift in a way you perceive as faster rather than walking down the cassette from the inner, until you need the outer and vice versa.

In a world where your fingers / shifters / front mechs are made of cheese, I'd buy this.

 

[Tangoup51]

I don't think you are going to get far with eloquence and clarity. Look, in 3 years time he'll be 21 and you would have learnt so much more.

The fact my age is something that stuck to your memory does begin to smell like you have an ego problem

 

[broady]

Just to update what I feel has becomea little bit of a hostile thread.
I personally would never set a chain that tight on putting a new chain on, but wanted opinions on if people thought it would still be safe or not.

I have a new chain arriving in the next few days and already have the 11-28 cassette (obviously) and a medium cage rear mech. I know I can still use the short mech for that cassette, but am going to see about trying a 11-32 cassette at some point.
Each cassette will then have its own chain and I'll pick up some quick links so I can pick and choose as I want.

Thanks for all your help