Red Lights

[Absinthe Minded]

Really? I've been copying my CDs to digital formats for personal use/backup, for as long as it's been technically possible to do so. When do I graduate to ABH and extreme pornography?

Funny! Perhaps you should stop wasting your time here and consider a career on stage.

What I'm saying is that by ignoring the lower-on-the-list laws, you are threatening to debase the ones above.

And isn't it legal to copy your media for personal and backup purposes?

Back to you, for an outstandingly witty reply...

 

[jimboalee]

There is a large shade of grey when lonely road junctions are concerned. White is obeying the Highway Code to the letter of the law. Black is whizzing through the junction without even looking. Grey is approaching with care, checking for traffic and if there is no traffic, proceeding with caution.

Who? I ask you, who will care a shoot if I go across the red? There's no one there to argue the toss.

Mind you, killing a butterfly in the Brazilian forest causes a tornado in North Dakota,

so I'd better stop at the red lamp in future.

 

[magnatom]

Ask yourself a question.

How far down the Police's list of serious crimes does "Lone cyclist riding across deserted traffic junction when signal is against him" stand?

Oh I agree it will be pretty low, and rightly so. However, your posts suggest that it is the ability to avoid getting caught that justifies it for you. Are there any other laws that you break as you know you can get away with it?

If I had a dime for every time a car driver/work colleague/bus driver/taxi driver/friend etc said to me that they see cyclists run red lights etc, so why should they get any respect... I'd be a millionaire (in dollars of course).

Yes it is a weak argument, but they have a point. If you expect others to abide by the rules, we have to be abiding by the rules as well. Jumping red lights whilst demanding drivers follow the rules of the road is exhibiting double standards IMO.

 

[Absinthe Minded]

Oh I agree it will be pretty low, and rightly so. However, your posts suggest that it is the ability to avoid getting caught that justifies it for you. Are there any other laws that you break as you know you can get away with it?

If I had a dime for every time a car driver/work colleague/bus driver/taxi driver/friend etc said to me that they see cyclists run red lights etc, so why should they get any respect... I'd be a millionaire (in dollars of course).

Yes it is a weak argument, but they have a point. If you expect others to abide by the rules, we have to be abiding by the rules as well. Jumping red lights whilst demanding drivers follow the rules of the road is exhibiting double standards IMO.

Amen to that. Another question is why bother jumping them at all? What is to be gained?

 

[jimboalee]

Oh I agree it will be pretty low, and rightly so. However, your posts suggest that it is the ability to avoid getting caught that justifies it for you. Are there any other laws that you break as you know you can get away with it?

If I had a dime for every time a car driver/work colleague/bus driver/taxi driver/friend etc said to me that they see cyclists run red lights etc, so why should they get any respect... I'd be a millionaire (in dollars of course).

Yes it is a weak argument, but they have a point. If you expect others to abide by the rules, we have to be abiding by the rules as well. Jumping red lights whilst demanding drivers follow the rules of the road is exhibiting double standards IMO.

Yes, if I had a dime for every motorist who drives at 32 mph in a 30 limit, I wouldn't be anywhere near this chatboard. I'd be in Las Vegas.

 

[magnatom]

Yes, if I had a dime for every motorist who drives at 32 mph in a 30 limit, I wouldn't be anywhere near this chatboard. I'd be in Las Vegas.

Indeed. It certainly is the greater crime, and I have pointed this out to drivers on many occasions. However, the perception is (and it isn't correct, granted) that red light jumping is as serious an issue. And that is what i comes down to, perceptions. As cyclists we are perceived as renegades, troublemakers, law brakers. Thus we are treated as such (by some, certainly not all). Therefore, to gain respect we have to get our own house in order, show to others that their perceptions are wrong, i.e. that the majority of cyclists are law abiding and just going about their daily business.

Thus by RLJing others see you (and even late at night there are often others around) and your act will, just slightly, confirm their bias against us. So by just waiting the extra 1-2 minutes (does that really matter) and not jumping the light, instead of confirming a bias you become a cycling ambassador.

To me, it's a no-brainer.

 

[Dan B]

What I'm saying is that by ignoring the lower-on-the-list laws, you are threatening to debase the ones above.

How exactly am I doing that? Feel free to use short words

And isn't it legal to copy your media for personal and backup purposes?

The CD lying on the desk in front of me says on it "(P) & (C) 1999 VF2 Inc, under exclusive license to Cooking Vinyl". This means that they have the right to copy it, and that other people, including me, do not. You may be thinking of the clause in the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 which permits backup copies of computer programs, but audio CDs are not computer programs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...aw-every-time-you-copy-a-CD-to-your-iPod.html

or more recently

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2009/apr/03/queen-ipod-copyright

Is Barack Obama threatening to debase the legal system? Answers on a really big postcard ...

 

[jimboalee]

On my ride home tonight, the roads will be populated.

I will stop at signals.
I will keep to the left and let motorist pass safely.

I will be the model cyclist.


On my ride to work in the morning, the roads will be empty.

I will check junctions before I proceed.
I will keep in a position where my headlamp is illuminating the kerb.

I will be the phantom cyclist.

 

[magnatom]

On my ride home tonight, the roads will be populated.

I will stop at signals.
I will keep to the left and let motorist pass safely.

I will be the model cyclist.


On my ride to work in the morning, the roads will be empty.

I will check junctions before I proceed.
I will keep in a position where my headlamp is illuminating the kerb.

I will be the phantom cyclist.

Fair enough, but don't you think I have a point about perceptions?

 

[garrilla]

Who? I ask you, who will care a shoot if I go across the red? There's no one there to argue the toss.

Mind you, killing a butterfly in the Brazilian forest causes a tornado in North Dakota,

Importantly, the ONLY reason why a butterfly in the Brazilian forest *could* cause a tornado in Dakota is that both places are connected into a single meterological system. This is complexity.

The reason it is safe for you to go across a red when there is no other traffic around is you are in that system alone. This is simiplicity.

 

[jimboalee]

The first set of traffic lights on my trip home are in Warwick. Castle Hill and Jury Street. Only a madman ( on a bike ) would RLJ these.
Only a madman ( also on a bike ) would proceed across them without checking the counter direction traffic has stopped at their red light signal.

I stand there and visually check the motorists have STOPPED at their red before riding across my green lamp.

Yes it is perceptions, and while I'm visually checking my own safety, the idiot in the car behind toots to say "They've changed to green. Get on with it!"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[siadwell]

It's a long way from Surrey tomorrow morning for you to stop me.

And what are the police going to say when you phone them later this afternoon saying a cyclist on his own is going to ride across a red traffic signal?

What on earth are you blathering about man?

I didn't say I was going to stop you. Or phone the police.

The reaons you should stop at a red light is the same reason why any other road user should follow all the rules and laws of the road, such as giving cyclists sufficient room when overtaking, or looking and indicating before changing lanes, or not parking on blind bends, or driving on the correct site of the road, or obeying the speed limit. If road users routinely feel they can pick and choose which rules they feel apply to them, the roads will be anarchic.

 

[siadwell]

Mind you, killing a butterfly in the Brazilian forest causes a tornado in North Dakota,

so I'd better stop at the red lamp in future.

One of the reasons I started posting here is it seems a friendly place where there can be some good banter.

But I'm going to get personal. You have quite clearly run out of anything sensible to say and are now showing yourself to be a babbling fool.

 

[Dan B]

Which law is it that mandates looking and indicating before changing lanes? I've never seen it, and I do remember that my driving instructor always used to say that there is no need to indicate unless someone will benefit from seeing the signal

Obviously I'm concerned that I might be breaking this law as it will only hasten my slide into sadonecrobestiality

 

[magnatom]

I stand there and visually check the motorists have STOPPED at their red before riding across my green lamp.

Yes it is perceptions, and while I'm visually checking my own safety, the idiot in the car behind toots to say "They've changed to green. Get on with it!"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yes but he couldn't accuse you of breaking any laws, just bimbling a bit .

Seriously though, perception matters. If anyone disagrees with this, I'd be interested to know their logic behind it.

So if you agree that perception matters, and that the one or two minutes saved by running red lights isn't that important really (get up 1 or 2 minutes earlier) then I can't see any justification for running red lights.