running red lights

[psmiffy]

Interesting. I think the response would be you shouldn't ride the bike that ladden in traffic if you know it will cause you that much of a problem.

The trouble is when you are touring fully laden with panniers that is not always an option – the answer is you accept that you are slow and lumbering – you do not run red lights – because you are slow it takes longer to clear a junction – anticipate the red, make yourself big and control the traffic behind you and stop early otherwise you are in danger from traffic jumping the green phase across you

As to starting off – anticipate the green and make yourself space in the traffic so you do not have to unclip –do not ride in the gutter - make yourself big in the traffic so that you have a vehicle sized space – learn to automatically select the right gear – learn how to be clipped in properly by at least the second pedal stroke – learn to be thickskinned

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Don't get me wrong I was not having a dig at touring cyclists. The comment was taylor-made for the question presented. I had assumed that all other options had been explored before running the hypothetical red light.

The trouble is when you are touring fully laden withpanniers that is not always an option – the answer is you accept that you areslow and lumbering – you do not run red lights – because you are slow it takeslonger to clear a junction – anticipate the red, make yourself big and controlthe traffic behind you and stop early otherwise you are in danger from trafficjumping the green phase across you

As to starting off – anticipatethe green and make yourself space in the traffic so you do not have to unclip –do not ride in the gutter - make yourself big in the traffic so that you have avehicle sized space – learn to automatically select the right gear – learn howto be clipped in by at least the second pedal stroke – learn to be thickskinned

 

[SportMonkey]

Bang goes your mitigating circumstances then

You've missed a point, again. I was answering a loaded and bad question. It's all about perception not causality.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Of course it is. Every pre-emptive decision we make is about perception. I see a car going way to fast to stop (my perception) I will run the light as I will otherwise be hit (my perception) and also my mitigating circumstance. If I run the light and claim I have no idea whether or not an accident would have happened then I expect the book to get thrown at me.

It is interesting although probably completely unrelated that you also have a threat about being hit by a left hook. Maybe, just maybe however you need to pay a little more attention to your surroundings whilst on the bike.

You've missed a point, again. I was answering a loaded and bad question. It's all about perception not causality.

 

[SportMonkey]

Of course it is. Every pre-emptive decision we make is about perception. I see a car going way to fast to stop (my perception) I will run the light as I will otherwise be hit (my perception) and also my mitigating circumstance. If I run the light and claim I have no idea whether or not an accident would have happened then I expect the book to get thrown at me.

It is interesting although probably completely unrelated that you also have a threat about being hit by a left hook. Maybe, just maybe however you need to pay a little more attention to your surroundings whilst on the bike.

Thread. And please stop putting comments before quotes, it reads terribly and is just wrong.

You seem to have an issue separating reality and hypothesis, so don't use the fact I got hit to score a point here. The fact I got hit will always affect my future decisions, and frankly discussing with you is like arguing with a child.

I also find the attitude of "you deserve to be hit" quite appalling. Telling members of this forum that you wish injury on them, or that they deserve it is frankly disgusting.

 

[SportMonkey]

[QUOTE 1442711"]
Well no, it isn't. That's been explained to you and you've also been given an example of what you said was an impossible scenario to evidence.

Perception does come in to it, and it's useful to explain to those who would RLJ out of fear that the fear is unfounded and that there are learning opportunities which would enable them to overcome this.
[/quote]

I've not, because no accident happened. Maybe the accident wouldn't have happened if the rider had stayed put. Nothing is definite.

Are you saying all fear of being hit is unfounded? Can we put you on a bike and keep trying scenarios with you with real cars? The downside is you may get hit.

We're all talking here, hypothesizing, as is much the case you make judgement often in a split second under pressure. We all know that we behave differently under pressure than discussing on a calm forum. How often do you yell at intelligent people reduced to idiots on game shows?

 

[summerdays]

I was very good the other day and sat at a temporary red light (as did the car behind me) whilst watching the man dismantle the temporary light on one of the other sides of the junction knowing that if I had arrived a minute later it probably wouldn't even be there. The guy taking down all the signs kept looking at me....

I would say that the majority wait at red lights that I see ... but that there is a reasonable number that do go through the red light.

And this thread has prompted me to report (again!!!) the only red I go through,because it isn't triggered by a bike - though luckily most times I have a car behind me. But it is an annoying set of lights as it turns back to red so quickly that if I'm not in the ASL but at the back of the queue it doesn't even notice my approach and turns to red before I get to the front! (Kellaway Ave for anyone that knows it).

As for the question about whether I've gone through to get out of the way of a car behind - only once when I could hear an emergency vehicle approaching and I was the only thing there waiting in the middle of the ASL - I cycled onto the empty pedestrian island immediately in front of the line.

 

[psmiffy]

Don't get me wrong I was not having a dig at touring cyclists. The comment was taylor-made for the question presented. I had assumed that all other options had been explored before running the hypothetical red light.

Do not get me wrong - but there even less excuse for runninga red light on a bicycle than there is in a car - the general principles arethe same - anticipate the red light - at cycle speeds if it has beengreen for a reasonable length of time it is likely it is going to red - beprepared - amber means stop - only cyclists without brakes should be incapableof stopping -

There is no excuse for running a red light - it is not just amatter of it being against the law - deliberate rlj-ing is just showing a contemptfor all other road users - a mega arrogance – which seems to transmit itself tothe whinny diatribe of self justification/bogus rationalisation that appears onhere from time to time.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Thread. And please stop putting comments before quotes, it reads terribly and is just wrong.

You seem to have an issue separating reality and hypothesis, so don't use the fact I got hit to score a point here. The fact I got hit will always affect my future decisions, and frankly discussing with you is like arguing with a child.

I also find the attitude of "you deserve to be hit" quite appalling. Telling members of this forum that you wish injury on them, or that they deserve it is frankly disgusting.

I do not wish you injury. I wish you safety on the bike. Your attitude is one of "the cyclist is always right" and "obeying laws is a choice rather than an obligation". That to me sounds like the thinking of a child. I do feel that you need to re-evaluate your road sense and perception of the possible however rather than just run red light "because I was hit before".

 

[Dan B]

Thought experiment: if it were made illegal as a pedestrian to cross the road at a crossing point except when the "green man" signal is showing (as I believe it is in some other countries including Germany and the US), what would be your response?

Currently it's legal to cross when and where you wish to, and the social expectation of the majority of other road users is that people will do this, and I for one am perfectly happy with this state of affairs. I know the law is indifferently (and inconsistently) enforced in places where they do have it, too, which I think is a indicator that it's not a very good law if the police don't think it's worth their time

(I might suggest further that cyclists behaving "as pedestrians" - i.e. moving at walking pace and giving way as necessary - should be treated de facto if not de jure as pedestrians are, but perhaps that's another tangent. )

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I would obey the law.

Thought experiment: if it were made illegal as a pedestrian to cross the road at a crossing point except when the "green man" signal is showing (as I believe it is in some other countries including Germany and the US), what would be your response?

Currently it's legal to cross when and where you wish to, and the social expectation of the majority of other road users is that people will do this, and I for one am perfectly happy with this state of affairs. I know the law is indifferently (and inconsistently) enforced in places where they do have it, too, which I think is a indicator that it's not a very good law if the police don't think it's worth their time

(I might suggest further that cyclists behaving "as pedestrians" - i.e. moving at walking pace and giving way as necessary - should be treated de facto if not de jure as pedestrians are, but perhaps that's another tangent. )

 

[SportMonkey]

[QUOTE 1442715"]
Of course I'm not saying that, please don't exaggerate.

What I'm saying is that we can look at how often cyclists are hit at lights. It's rare. We can also ask for examples of where accidents were avoided by moving, and Mikey provided one.

The fact is that the risk is minimal, and can be reduced even more using behaviours described by others on this thread. So it's pretty weak mitigation for RLJing.
[/quote]

I know there are no real mitigating circumstances, and I know I was wrong, hence my admission etc.. I've just had fun arguing the point, I'm stopping now as someone has taken it upon themselves to wish injury on my because of the views I argued.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Who has wished injury upon you. Can you quote the post please?

I know there are no real mitigating circumstances, and I know I was wrong, hence my admission etc.. I've just had fun arguing the point, I'm stopping now as someone has taken it upon themselves to wish injury on my because of the views I argued.

 

[SportMonkey]

I do not wish you injury. I wish you safety on the bike. Your attitude is one of "the cyclist is always right" and "obeying laws is a choice rather than an obligation". That to me sounds like the thinking of a child. I do feel that you need to re-evaluate your road sense and perception of the possible however rather than just run red light "because I was hit before".

It is interesting although probably completely unrelated that you also have a threat about being hit by a left hook. Maybe, just maybe however you need to pay a little more attention to your surroundings whilst on the bike.

You said in double-speak I deserved it. I have never said the cyclist is always right, nor inferred it. Obligations aren't always fulfilled, that is a case. It is not child like to follow the rules of others blindly, you have your own mind. It is rather disappointing that our education system fosters the I will obey.

Anyway, that's my last post as you want of harm to me has decidely bought me to abusive posts for want of me playing devils advocate or agent provacteur.

Good day to you sir, I wish you safety although you do not wish me.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Me thinks he doth protest too much. Good bye and safe riding to you.

You said in double-speak I deserved it. I have never said the cyclist is always right, nor inferred it. Obligations aren't always fulfilled, that is a case. It is not child like to follow the rules of others blindly, you have your own mind. It is rather disappointing that our education system fosters the I will obey.

Anyway, that's my last post as you want of harm to me has decidely bought me to abusive posts for want of me playing devils advocate or agent provacteur.

Good day to you sir, I wish you safety although you do not wish me.