running red lights

[akb]

Honestly...? :-)

I stop at every red light, especially junctions; just isnt worth the risk.

If there is a pedestrian cross which has a red light and is clear, I may move off before the lights change back to green, but only if I have checked that there is no one else about the use the crossing and if it is safe to do so.

 

[martint235]

It would be interesting to know whether cyclist's obedience of red lights is based on their respect for the law, or their own opinions of good and bad cycling. Is it just the fact that it is law stopping you from doing it?

What would you do if cycling in Naples, or for arguments sake that the law was changed to reflect this in the UK? Exercise your right to RLJ as permissable by law, or disagree with the law and stick to your belief that the law allowing you to RLJ is a bad/wrong one.

Should the law be changed to allow cyclists to treat a red light as optional then I would do just that. It would become similar to when I cross the road as a pedestrian, look at the risks and act accordingly so on quite a lot of my commute (T-junctions, left turns etc) I would probably go straight through.

Bear in mind though that even if going through a red light was an option, pedestrians would still have priority.

 

[RedRider]

Would it though? Many countries have similar laws with no campaign of disobedience. IIRC France has a similar law, several US states only allow you to cross at a green man crossing etc. And if any one was going to go for civil disobedience it would be the French. In the UK, I think it would take a while to bed in but eventually people would just get on with it. Remember the "I'll still smoke in the pub they'll never stop me" and "Not wearing a seatbelt ever" brigades, sure there are people who break the law but the majority have just adapted. The UK, as a country, is fantastic in its ability to adapt to something that is hated initially by the majority.

Not knowing the history of legislative changes on 'jaywalking' in France it's difficult to say how and why the law became acceptable. I also don't have enough experience of France to know whether people abide by it or whether it's policed. Perhaps others could enlighten?

The smoking ban arrived on the back of good evidence and a change in social expectation/cultural habits. I suppose if there were compelling and understandable arguments for introducing jaywalking into British law it's possible it would be accepted but there aren't so it wouldn't IMO.

 

[Origamist]

Here in Naples, red lights for cyclists are completely optional. I do not think I have stopped at one for over a year. Indeed, I have found that edging forward from the line and choosing when to cross is so much safer than waiting for green. The green light can become a 'whacky races start' scenario and on a bike, I do not want to be worrying about what is going on behind me. It works here, but when I lived in UK, I would stop at red lights.

Wow, you cycle in Naples! When I went there earlier this year is was chaos - close passes (inches, not a copuple of feet) every other car had a scrape or dent (as did most of the mopeds), there was a constant cacophony of beeps and sirens, lots of mopeds would often not bother stopping at reds and I saw dozens of motorists jump lights too (I only saw one collision though). I saw a hardly any cyclists and decided I didn't fancy it.

 

[psmiffy]

Here in Naples, red lights for cyclists are completely optional. I do not think I have stopped at one for over a year. Indeed, I have found that edging forward from the line and choosing when to cross is so much safer than waiting for green. The green light can become a 'whacky races start' scenario and on a bike, I do not want to be worrying about what is going on behind me. It works here, but when I lived in UK, I would stop at red lights.

Ive cycled quite a lot in Italy in many of the cities - I agree that there is a definite wacky races feel to being at a red light with all the mopedists - but on the contrary - I always stop at the red lights and find - in the north anyway - that most other people do as well - I find it best to hang back a bit and be able to see what is front of me rather than not worrying about not worrying about what is behind me.

 

[martint235]

The smoking ban arrived on the back of good evidence and a change in social expectation/cultural habits. I suppose if there were compelling and understandable arguments for introducing jaywalking into British law it's possible it would be accepted but there aren't so it wouldn't IMO.

I think this came after the smoking ban and is a sign of our adaptability.

You could argue that there would be fewer accidents if everyone used pelican or other designated pedestrian crossings. I assume that's how the countries that do have jaywalking laws came to that decision.

 

[lejogger]

Ok... slight change of tack...

What is the forum's view on getting a jump on the lights... eg. you're waiting at the red, but forward enough to see when the signals for the other traffic change. Obviously if you know the lights then you know your turn is next, and you've checked for certain that no cars are going to RLJ, do you push off a second or two before the green, and before the cars behind to get out ahead, maybe to ensure you get primary for approaching parked cars? Technically still an RLJ.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I wait for the light to change, but prepare myself to be able to set of the instant the light change.

Ok... slight change of tack...

What is the forum's view on getting a jump on the lights... eg. you're waiting at the red, but forward enough to see when the signals for the other traffic change. Obviously if you know the lights then you know your turn is next, and you've checked for certain that no cars are going to RLJ, do you push off a second or two before the green, and before the cars behind to get out ahead, maybe to ensure you get primary for approaching parked cars? Technically still an RLJ.

 

[psmiffy]

Ok... slight change of tack...

do you push off a second or two before the green, and before the cars behind to get out ahead, maybe to ensure you get primary for approaching parked cars? Technically still an RLJ.

No - If I am at the front of the lights I am in primary anyway - positioned to be able to take the road around parked cars - if there are no parked cars I have the discretion to cede my position to allow cars to pass - similarly if I am a few cars back - (do not really believe in ASZs) - then I am in primary - same same

 

[Mad at urage]

[QUOTE 1442696"]
Ok, mini poll time. Who here has ever had to RLJ because not doing so would have resulted in the following vehicle hitting you?
[/quote]
Near thing this morning, I ran an amber light because I considered that the vehicle behind me was unlikely to stop. Looked back half-way across the junction and sure enough the car had accelerated through the lights (which must have been red by that time, I was on late amber). Rather glad I did as if the same acceleration had been applied (likely as I heard the revs rise before I went through), I'd have been hit.

I have, I was on the motorbike and had to roll into the intersection to make space for the moton with smoking tyres and an inability to stop before me and before the stop line. Long time ago though.

On a motorbike I've been hit by the bus that was driving behind me (no I had not just overtaken him): His response was "I didn't expect you to stop" my reply "Would you have stopped for the old dear you just catapulted me past?"

[QUOTE 1442703"]
It's not a bad question, because it's led you on to the next point. Which is, if it is impossible to pay whether an accident could have happened, then those claiming it as a reason for RLJing are basing the reason on nothing.

As it stands, it's not an impossible question at all. If you jump out of the way of an approaching car and it passes through the space you were standing in then there's your example.

The easier one would be to ask who here has ever been hit up the chuff while waiting at lights?

Anyone?
[/quote]
Yes, see above, also two other occasions on a motorbike also witnessed another cyclist hit at a roundabout (he stopped to give way and the motorist attempted to go). It's not an infrequent or theoretical occurrence.

 

[lejogger]

I wait for the light to change, but prepare myself to be able to set of the instant the light change.

That's the textbook answer... and it's what I do more often than not.

I guess that my personal feelings (to some extent) are that every advantage you can take to preserve your own safety should be taken, to get away ahead of traffic and away from danger if you feel that it's necessary. But that doesn't necessarily mean an RLJ.

 

[lejogger]

No - If I am at the front of the lights I am in primary anyway - positioned to be able to take the road around parked cars - if there are no parked cars I have the discretion to cede my position to allow cars to pass - similarly if I am a few cars back - (do not really believe in ASZs) - then I am in primary - same same

Again you're quoting textbook riding that doesn't always translate. In the real world, you can get caught last minute at lights in secondary with a car immediately to your right and too far forward to allow you to more to primary. Even if it's an error, it's easy to get caught in a poor position that you need to get out of. Maybe there's a filter left as well, and waiting for traffic to pass on your right is leaving you a sitting duck?

I perfectly understand and respect your views and opinion. In the above scenario, I might try to give myself a 2 second start in order to recover road position and move safely out the way of filtering left turners.

 

[RedRider]

I think this came after the smoking ban and is a sign of our adaptability.

You could argue that there would be fewer accidents if everyone used pelican or other designated pedestrian crossings. I assume that's how the countries that do have jaywalking laws came to that decision.

As a one-time smoker I can safely say the ban followed years of increasing marginalisation (first aeroplanes, next trains, eventually workplaces etc) and decades of increasing social unacceptability, both driven by good evidence on health.

This kind of drip, drip, drip accumulation would perhaps be the way to sneak a universal jaywalking law under our noses but it would take years and then only if there was compelling evidence in favour. I doubt whether health benefit arguments could be made compelling as we are waking up from our 'car is king' mindset and it could more easily be argued cars should be banned from city streets rather than pedestrians banned from city roads.

But leaving that aside, are RLJers another sign of human adaptability? What of my question about whether they could in fact be inadvertant angels beating a desire line towards more sensible traffic light laws eg cyclists allowed to turn left on reds if clear?

 

[Buddfox]

Here in Naples, red lights for cyclists are completely optional. I do not think I have stopped at one for over a year. Indeed, I have found that edging forward from the line and choosing when to cross is so much safer than waiting for green. The green light can become a 'whacky races start' scenario and on a bike, I do not want to be worrying about what is going on behind me. It works here, but when I lived in UK, I would stop at red lights.

Ha...! My in-laws from Naples... from driving there, red lights are optional for cars as well!

 

[RedRider]

No - If I am at the front of the lights I am in primary anyway - positioned to be able to take the road around parked cars - if there are no parked cars I have the discretion to cede my position to allow cars to pass - similarly if I am a few cars back - (do not really believe in ASZs) - then I am in primary - same same

Me too.