spa steel tourer?

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cisamcgu

Legendary Member
Location
Merseyside-ish
Or maybe this ?
http://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/models/model-1/

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:wub:
 

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Amanda P

Legendary Member
If you are planning to build the Spa frame as light as possible then you would not be able to use 105 or ultegra hubs, you'd need a MTB hubs. The Shimano Deore hub Spa fits to their wheels is a very good choice for touring, it has good seals and easy to maintain / repair anywhere.

If I recall correctly, the rear dropouts are spaced at 132.5mm, to accept either 130mm road or 135mm mountain bike hubs with minimal springing either way.

Ideally I'd like to go with disc brakes so I wonder if this frame can take them.

Look at the photos; you can see for yourself that there are no bosses for them. If you want disc brakes, you'll have to look elsewhere.

It might be worth asking Spa if they could build up with different components, if the ones they suggest don't meet your requirements. I don't know what they'd say, but my experience of them is that they'd certainly listen.

Spa will build to your spec if that's what you want. The tourer is specified with one eye on the overall cost, so if you want top-end components and are happy with the price creeping up, they'll do it for you. But probably not while you wait.
 

Spoked Wheels

Legendary Member
Location
Bournemouth
If I recall correctly, the rear dropouts are spaced at 132.5mm, to accept either 130mm road or 135mm mountain bike hubs with minimal springing either way.



Look at the photos; you can see for yourself that there are no bosses for them. If you want disc brakes, you'll have to look elsewhere.



Spa will build to your spec if that's what you want. The tourer is specified with one eye on the overall cost, so if you want top-end components and are happy with the price creeping up, they'll do it for you. But probably not while you wait.


I just checked and you are right, they are 132.5mm and I don't like that, although, being a steel frame it could be easily fixed. Having Deore hubs, 135mm, would over load the bearings.... don't ask me how I know this :smile: - even if you use cartridge bearings, just mounting the wheel would be harder. I used to run an old frame 126mm dropouts with 130mm hubs and after a while, without any intervention from myself the dropouts expanded by 2mm. I still needed to expand the dropouts by hand, at the same time you're trying to mount the wheel and when you have mudguards and panniers the job is that much more difficult. A few months ago, I decided to cold set the dropouts and now I hate myself for not doing it years ago..... enough said on that.

I hadn't seen the photos properly, I think I'll have to look somewhere else :sad:

If you do your sums, it pays to do your own building if you are able to do so.
 
OP
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jags

Guru
so are u saying the rear wheel wont fit its the new 105 11speed hub (135mm).
i would love to get spa to build a new wheel but to be honest money wise i'de be struggling big time.

chainset i was thinking stronglight impact 50x34 and sram 12 to 32 well happy with that ratio.
decent bottom bracket to match.
 

Spoked Wheels

Legendary Member
Location
Bournemouth
Having studied the Spa Cycles steel tourers, I've fallen for this: the Surly Disc Trucker 700 c

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnNRzaLamNPBMbuckv_tfUote3Rjrbj4Aexvv3TOOGlFCPj7Ay.jpg


Funnily enough, I'll be in Harrogate quite soon and will pop into the shop to have a look at a future no. + 1 (within the next 2-3 years). It seems to tick ALL the boxes for me.


Absolutely!!!! Further considerations this frame makes much more sense to me

2746-8577-main-disc-trucker-14_fm_930x390-183.jpg


I like the way they mount the rear caliper. Not too sure of the colour though :smile:
 
OP
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J

jags

Guru
nice but i think ide rather have the spa.
im typing here as quiet as i can dont want to waken the wife lol
btw there a storm blowing outside one rough night.
not great cycling weather.
 

Spoked Wheels

Legendary Member
Location
Bournemouth
so are u saying the rear wheel wont fit its the new 105 11speed hub (135mm).
i would love to get spa to build a new wheel but to be honest money wise i'de be struggling big time.

chainset i was thinking stronglight impact 50x34 and sram 12 to 32 well happy with that ratio.
decent bottom bracket to match.

No, that is not what I'm saying.

The dropouts on that frame is 132.5mm and the 105 are 130mm so no problem there. Having said that, the Deore are better hubs for touring. If you have 105 wheels then go for it.

If you want a 50 x 34 chainset then you can go for a Shimano 105 compact but that will not be so good for touring. For touring you probably looking at 48x36x24 and Spa do some nice stronglight impact chainsets.

As for BB go for a Shimano UN55.
 

Spoked Wheels

Legendary Member
Location
Bournemouth
got ya cheers ,yeah i suppose at the end of the day the triple would make more sense..
I'm about to do my first tour this summer but I know a few people that do touring and everybody that has a touring bike tends to go for gears that make going uphill loaded possible and easier. They tends to use old technology if you like but they are cheap and readily available. A good example is the Shimano UN55 BB.

I'm adapting an old bike but I'm already looking at building the wheels for my next proper touring bike :smile:
 

Amanda P

Legendary Member
so are u saying the rear wheel wont fit its the new 105 11speed hub (135mm).
i would love to get spa to build a new wheel but to be honest money wise i'de be struggling big time.

Our opinions seem divided on this point, Jags.

The issue is that 'mountain bike' hubs (like Deore) are 135mm wide between locknuts. 'Road bike' hubs (like older 105) are 130mm wide.

Steel is a springy material (that's why it makes such good, tough, comfortable bike frames), and the stays of a steel frame will easily 'spring' 5mm either way so that a 135mm hub can be fitted in a 130mm-spaced frame or vice versa. It will make fitting the wheel in the frame fractionally more difficult - although in my experience, in real-world situations, mud, brake muck, corrosion, salt, darkness, greasy or cold hands and combinations of the above are usually more of an issue than a slight spring to the frame.

Because of this difference between 'road' and 'mountain bike' hubs, Spa have split the difference and built their frame spaced at 132.5mm.

'Springing' a frame like this has no consequences whatever in my practical experience, over considerable distances. This kind of bodge offends some, especially engineers, though, and arguably it is a bodge, albeit a very minor one. The extra load on a hub, I would think (especially a 130mm hub in a 132.5mm frame) would be negligible. I'd think cornering loads and water penetration and corrosion (especially on a 105 hub, which has less sealing) would be far greater concerns. (If it's a solid axle rather than a quick-release, the spring would make no difference to the hub at all).

If you can't live with springing the frame to remove and refit the rear wheel (and we're only talking 2.5mm here!), one solution is to 'cold set' the frame so that the stays are fixed to suit the hub exactly. Any competent bike shop should be able to do this for you; probably Spa would do it themselves if you asked. It's essentially done by strong-arming the stays together or apart, hopefully equally on both sides, cold-bending them fractionally to achieve the spacing you want. (Most bike shops would prefer to do this while you're not looking - it looks - and is - crude! It might be worth adding that unless the frame builder is incredibly good, or very lucky, doing this procedure on a completed frame is usually necessary anyway to fine-tune the track and spacing the last millimetre or so, so adjusting by a further 2.5mm is really no different).

Another solution might be to remove one or two washers or spacers from the stack on the hub axle, or replace the ones it comes with with slightly thinner ones, or grind them down a touch, so that its over-lock-nut width is 132.5mm exactly. This is possible with many hubs, although I haven't looked at an 11-speed 105 to see if it could be done there. On a frame with very tight clearances, this might result in the chain coming close to or fouling the stays; you'd really have to eyeball the hub and cassette in the frame to assess this.

But in short, I'd say, if you like the look of the Spa frame, go for it. Your 105 hubs will fit, practically, just fine, and you can change to tougher Deore hubs later if you want with no problems. Springing isn't, in my opinion, a real-world issue, and you still have the options of cold-setting or re-spacing a hub if you want to avoid it. The folk at Spa are very competent bicycle technicians and many of them experienced tourers too, so if you want further opinions, ask them. They're usually happy to chat on the phone about this kind of thing, or even better, call in - then you can look at and point at things on real bikes while you discuss them. (Clearly they'll have more time to do this in the middle of a wet weekday than on a sunny Saturday morning).

As for transmission parts, if you want a tough, go-anywhere tourer, old-school is usually best, especially if your expedition is going to take you to the sticks in the middle of nowhere in Africa or Asia. Square-taper, internal-bearing bottom brackets maybe a little old-fashioned, but they can be fixed or replaced anywhere; this is not true of splined ones. 8-speed chain can be picked up just about anywhere, while 11-speed technology probably hasn't reached many of those bike mechanics who work on the side of the road outside a tin shack in Pemba or Mombasa. If you're staying in Europe, forget all that and have what you want. (I have 8-speed because I find it's tougher, easier to set up, lasts longer, and I don't need 33 gears!)

To me it would seem slightly strange to put a double on a touring bike. Weight stops being an issue the minute you decide on steel and put luggage on it, so why not have the triple and know that it will haul you up pretty much anything?

If you're not going to be hauling much gear and you really want to keep the weight to the bare minimum, you might consider the Spa Audax instead? It's a touch lighter, I think, built with calliper brakes in mind (no canit/V-brake studs) and built for the kind of light, fast touring you may have in mind.
 
OP
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jags

Guru
Cheers uncle phil your a mind of information.i think my best bet when i can afford it is to get a new rear wheel from spa deore hub 9 speed .plus the triple chainset ,
all my touring will be here in Ireland i doubt very much i'll ever go abroad again .
going to go for the touring bike few grams ain't going to make much difference to the way i cycle these days.
 

Spoked Wheels

Legendary Member
Location
Bournemouth
Steel is a springy material (that's why it makes such good, tough, comfortable bike frames), and the stays of a steel frame will easily 'spring' 5mm either way so that a 135mm hub can be fitted in a 130mm-spaced frame or vice versa. It will make fitting the wheel in the frame fractionally more difficult - although in my experience, in real-world situations, mud, brake muck, corrosion, salt, darkness, greasy or cold hands and combinations of the above are usually more of an issue than a slight spring to the frame.

It seems that way, our opinions are very much divided on this point.

You must be a much stronger man than I'm cause even when I was 10 years younger I found mounting the wheel while at the same time opening the dropouts 4mm. As I mentioned already, with time the dropouts settled at 128mm and then it was much easier but still a problem.
I did damage 2 hubs in 10 years. I would adjust the preload sufficiently to let any play dissappear when tightening the QR skewer. The bearings were over loaded by the seatstays springing back. There is a better technique to pre load the bearings but I wasn't aware of it at the time and from what I have seen, not even reputables LBS use the technique.

I was not aware that people interchange 130mm and 135mm hubs. I'm a wheel builder amongst other things :smile: and I know for a fact that some wheelbuilders would go to the trouble of cutting the 5mm axle excess on Deore hubs for touring wheels that can only take 130mm hubs.

Because of this difference between 'road' and 'mountain bike' hubs, Spa have split the difference and built their frame spaced at 132.5mm.

I can't help it but to think Spa's decision to build the frame with 132.5mm based on economic reasons. Addressing most of the cycling market with one frame.

A wheel built with 135mm hub would have a better bracing angle and make for a stronger wheel. Why would you buy a touring bike to use it with 130mm hub?

As for the rest of your post.... I share your opinion :smile:
 

Dave 123

Legendary Member
@jags i purchased a Spa ti tourer a couple of months ago. I also spent a fair bit of time on the steel tourer when I I demoed the bikes.
I found that the bikes were sturdy and a good relaxed and comfy ride. The wheels seem strong and of good quality. I'm just about winning the war against the leather saddle!
The shifters are fine as is the drive train.
As others have said, give them a bell or pop in as they'll give you some of their time (you have to chisel through the Yorkshire gruffness!)
At present I'm breaking the saddle in by commuting daily, about 7 miles each day, and if I'm honest I tend to ride it more like a road bike if you know what I mean..... Head down get to work/go home ASAP and it's not suited to that. Over Christmas I went out on it a couple of times at touring pace and it feels like a different bike, really nice.
I've bought mine to go to France for a month long tour in September, can't wait!
 
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