Titanium ????

[Siclo]

Why do titanium frames always appear to have carbon forks? Are titanium forks not possible?

Ti forks are possible and there's a couple of companies that do them, notably Burls, XACD and Rockbros but you need fairly large bore tubing to reduce the flex so where you do see them, and it's still pretty rare, is CX and rigid MTB's, where the flex serves a purpose and the large bore doesn't totally spoil the aesthetics.

Bit of a TMN to @ianrauk

 

[HLaB]

I've had an original Kinesis GF-Ti for a few years. Lovely, smooth-riding bike. I've got carbon for fast club rides, but the titanium always get preferred for long solo rides.

Ive got the same bike but retired the carbon and the GF is my goto bike for fast club rides too :-)

 

[mustang1]

When they make titanium wheels, I'll consider a titanium frame.

 

[Soltydog]

Titanium forks are available but very few and far between. Burls makes Ti forks.

Enigma did a one off last year & painted the forks & stem it a very close match to brushed Ti, I very much liked the look of that.
I'd love Ti forks, but think they tend to look very old school & prefer the look of the wide carbon blade forks

 

[HLaB]

Why do titanium frames always appear to have carbon forks? Are titanium forks not possible?

If the OP is worried about weight and wobble and is considering replacing his old steel MTB with an expensive Ti frame which frankly is never going to happen given he currently has such a low value bike anyway and a good Ti bike in a decent spec is not cheap, why does he not consider instead an aluminium framed bike which is light strong and stiff to carry his weight and wobble?

You can get Ti forks but I think it keeps the cost and weight down with Carbon and rides better too. IMO the black forks on silver look more eye catching anyway:-)

 

[Venod]

Love the 'permanent' invisible mudguard look. How do you do that?

All I can say is I am also in that picture.

 

[Ajax Bay]

For those who have the endurance to do so, have a read of this 2015 thread on the use of titanium for frames: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles.183930/ ignoring the ad hominems, appeals to authority and strawmen; oh, and scroll through the discursive 'banter' and the OT tyre tread derailleur attempts
Taster:

Titanium in an inappropriate frame material. It has no benefits over steel, aluminium or carbon and is more expensive to manufacture than any of them.
Titanium's reputation as a super-strong material is ill-founded. It is half as strong as steel but half as heavy. It is twice as strong as aluminium, but twice as heavy. Strength is not the crux of the story though since even aluminium (four times weaker than steel*) is strong enough.
Titanium tubing is very expensive and it is an expensive material to work with. It readily work-hardens so that it's properties change as the piece is milled or drilled or bent. Without proper heat treatment, those pretty welds do crack and rather quickly too, if the job is not perfect.
Other materials are better at doing the job of a modern frame. Aluminium can be hydro-formed into organic shapes (think smooth tapered head tube and special blending end-pieces where one tube meets up with another). Carbon is of course the ultimate organic-shapeable material. it can be made into just about any form and we see these smooth, flowing forms on today's carbon frames. By comparison, titanium frames are agricultural. The bottom bracket is just a piece of pipe, as is the head tube. Yes, they've fiddled a bit with the downtube nowadays but even that looks bolted on, it just doesn't mimic the organic forms we have come to love on modern bikes.
Yes it is rust-proof, but CroMo steel bikes just about never rust through either and of course, aluminium is equally corrosion proof (except for seatposts, but that happens with Ti too).
To make everyone realize you have a ti bike, you have to leave it unpainted, otherwise no-one will know. It smacks a bit of the Rolex syndrome to me.
Titanium bikes are not light - not that I mind, but I do not like the way they attempt to control the weight by fitting carbon forks.

In summary, it is expensive, solves no known problem and applied to the job at hand purely for its mystical iron-curtain military connotations.

Then, as for its shock-absorption properties. Those are non-existent. A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to it's shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth. Most shock absorption properties of bikes and tyres are a psychological by-product of the acoustic feedback from the bike/tyres.

Trusses are laterally flexible but that's not how a bike absorbs shock and vibration.
* I am loosely basing my "co-efficient of strength" on a combination of tensile and compressive strengths of an average alloy of all the materials.

Yes and no. Firstly, titanium is not stronger than steel, only half as strong. Also half the weight in steel. But that's not the real issue here.
The issue is how thin you can draw the tubing. Already, steel tubing is drawn to approximately 0.6mm (the Reynolds historians can help me out here). Tubing this thin, even when butted (made thicker at the ends) pose problems with welding, attaching fixtures such as water bottle cages etc. The drawing process also cannot proportionally thin out a material according to its strength to just any arbritary figure. There is a practical limit. I'll use an extreme example of some super-strength steel that's drawn so thin that you can squash the down-tube with your hand like a beer can.
Although ti can be hydro-formed like aluminium, it is very expensive and difficult to do it, leaving us with limited shapes, tapers and butting. Hydroforming is a process where a piece of tube is put inside a mould and literally inflated by pumping liquid into it under pressure until it has stretched and conformed to the mould. Modern aluminium bicycles display nice examples of this technique where a slip top tube flares out to mate nicely against a fat head tube for a smooth, organic look. This is not only about looks but also about getting the weld interface just right. If you look at old Cannondales from the 1990s, you'll notice that they managed to get the fat downtube right but where I meets the slim head tube (which was just a straight piece of pipe), they had to do a lot of fillet welding to get it reasonable. Compare that to today's joints where both pieces are hydroformed.
This restricts titanium to relatively small tubes and a distinctive style. part of the style is then a mismatched carbon fork. Ti forks of the right strength are heavy - as heavy as steel forks. Of course there is nothing wrong with the style but it is kinda retro and has an effect on sales.
I quite like the look of a nice titanium weld. The bead is much, much better than alu weld beads and has that distinctive look. Do most people see it? I doubt it. Can most people distinguish between brushed ti and brushed alu? I doubt it.
Titanium is a niche material for frames chosen purely for its aesthetics and cognoscenti appeal. Therefore I say it is an inappropriate material. We could also craft beautiful bicycles from wood and just because the Spruce Goose was made entirely from wood and it could withstand the famous G-forces quoted by the aggressive man above, it doesn't mean we should.

 

[StuAff]

For those who have the endurance to do so, have read of this 2015 thread on the use of titanium for frames: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles.183930/ ignoring the ad hominems, appeals to authority and strawmen; oh, and scroll through the discursive 'banter' and the OT tyre tread derailleur attempts
Taster:

Oh yes, Mr Saddle…self-endorsed world expert on absolutely everything bicycle.

 

[PpPete]

For those who have the endurance to do so, have read of this 2015 thread

I have endurance.... (I have to, to complete long events at my speed) but not the kind which is necessary for that!

 

[Bollo]

Oh yes, Mr Saddle…self-endorsed world expert on absolutely everything.

FTFY

 

[PpPete]

Some interesting and maybe pertinent comments about Titanium a little way down this page, from someone who actually does know what he's talking about

...titanium is therefore and ideal choice for touring, longer day rides, audax and sportive bikes. Even though arguably they are a less valid choice for use as a race bike, they are still quite popular, as many do buy with a view to long term ownership...

 

[400bhp]

Not sure whats going on with Starley, the shop's disappeared recently to be replaced with a branch of 50 cycles, it's now listed as being round the corner in what was a house that was converted to an office. The website has gone too, taken together it don't look good.

They are still going but have ditched the carbon frames and are sticking to steel.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Some interesting and maybe pertinent comments about Titanium a little way down this page, from someone who actually does know what he's talking about

Are you casting nasturtiums on the knowledge of posters on this thread? I have pasted below the section to which you refer, with my comments. Note that Paul Smith's CV says he has been heavily into titanium frames and selling them to riders for the last 17 years. But he's still riding steel.

"Frames made of Titanium : Until recently they were seen as expensive and rather exclusive, although they are starting to become very popular as the pricing now competes with many of the comparable alternatives." Very popular??
"Virtually no performance drop as they don’t even rust, comfortable, light, yet extremely robust, especially compared to carbon! So much so that although I personally don't believe that anything does last forever; Titanium probably comes the closest." Check.
"Race bike performance wise, . . . most will now chose carbon." (Shortened that paragraph)

"The down side is that Titanium is very hard to work/build with; so most manufacturers don't!" Check.
"On the upside because of this the workman ship simply has to be of top quality and it shows, most Titanium frames do look and are very well made." As you'd expect at those prices.
"Most common used when someone wants a fast, responsive, light comfortable yet robust, durable bike and of course where price is not so much of an issue." My emboldening. Can we not use these adjectives about most decent frames?
"Titanium is therefore and ideal choice for touring, longer day rides, audax and sportive bikes." Fast? Responsive? Ideal? (as in better than other choices, taking all factors into account, or only when some factors are not taken into account)
"Even though arguably they are a less valid choice for use as a race bike, they are still quite popular" 'Quite' as in 'not very', presumably. And 'arguably' as 'I accept'.
"many Titanium frames have very classic designs that should not date in quite the same way that the ‘bang up to date styles of the moment’ may do." ie because of the welds needed and that the tubes need to be 'tubes' titanium frames look like frames of old (obviously they won't "date" - the design is perforce already dated), and can be enjoyed and valued by those who appreciate that style.
"Frame material conclusion :, Opinion is often much divided when it comes to frame materials and if it effects how the bike rides or not. Many will state that they can tell a huge difference and by the same token many will state that the frame material makes no difference at all. I would say I fall somewhere between both, I have ridden a huge variety over the years, when riding bikes similar in set up in nearly every respect apart from the frame material I would say that I can't tell a huge difference, but I can feel more than none that's for sure, a slight difference it may be, yet significant enough to play a part in my decision making when choosing a new frame."
'Yes' I fancy a titanium bike but I'd like to rely on good reasons, not marketing hype. I doubt I am alone. And 'yes' Pete, your titanium bike looked very smart - on the way into Moffat iirc. But my 531 frame has done me proud recently.

 

[Hedgemonkey]

This is precisely my conundrum, whilst my steel frame is a not the lightest in my stable, it is the most comfortable to ride. A titanium purchase will more than likely be made with very unscientific reasons, I just think it will be nice to own one.

 

[ianrauk]

This is precisely my conundrum, whilst my steel frame is a not the lightest in my stable, it is the most comfortable to ride. A titanium purchase will more than likely be made with very unscientific reasons, I just think it will be nice to own one.

..and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.