Brompton Question

[TheDoctor]

[Mod hat]
Can we keep it civilised please? Page 4 was starting to get a bit much.

As you were
[/Mod hat]

 

[Pale Rider]

You should join the Brompton Electric group on Facebook, there have been plenty of people with problems, many requiring replacement motors or controllers. I personally know of one owner who after so many problems, rejected the bike and received a refund. The fact they still haven't got the promised app and Bluetooth connectivity sorted after all this time speaks volumes about their competence.

Some of my remarks in this thread may have been a little over the top, but I think this post is a fair summary of the position.

Apps and blueteeth don't interest me on an ebike, so their absence wouldn't stop me buying one.

Handlebar real estate is at a premium on a Brompton, but it's surely possible to fit a Garmin for all the route information a rider could possibly need.

A well written app could provide extra security and give the rider the ability to change motor settings to make the bike ride more to his liking.

I agree that Brompton should have been able to make good on their promise to provide an app - such technology is hardly rocket science in 2020.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

Apps and blueteeth don't interest me on an ebike, so their absence wouldn't stop me buying one.

The main reason this should have been a priority for them is that it would (if they've designed it properly) enable firmware updates without having to visit a dealer. The idea that in this day and age you need to book the bike in for a service at great inconvenience to yourself just to update firmware is just ridiculous.

 

[Pale Rider]

The main reason this should have been a priority for them is that it would (if they've designed it properly) enable firmware updates without having to visit a dealer. The idea that in this day and age you need to book the bike in for a service at great inconvenience to yourself just to update firmware is just ridiculous.

As a general point, is there any need (or way) to update firmware in a closed system?

My 2010 Bosch ebike has never been near a dealer.

It worked nicely when I got it, and it's still working nicely today.

I'm not sure if the firmware could be updated because there's no external socket.

My 2017 Bosch ebike, which has a micro USB socket, started to play up after a few thousand miles.

Problem cured by plugging it into the Bosch diagnostic system and updating it, but I'm not sure that's progress.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

As a general point, is there any need (or way) to update firmware in a closed system?

I'm a software engineer, specifically an embedded software engineer (I write firmware and develop the electronics running it). These days, most of the functionality in a system is provided by the firmware, and it's getting more and more complex. No matter how much verification you do before shipping it, inevitably there will be unforseen bugs that over time will get fixed. Brompton are new to the electronics game, their product is new so more likely to need bug fixes applying. If they made it easier for customers to apply those fixes, customers would be happier and as a bonus the fleet of bikes out in the wild would all be more up to date (less support burden). They could even provide a beta program so a smaller group of customers could aid in testing new releases before pushing the updates out to everyone else (companies such as Garmin provid beta firmware for some products so if you have a bug that is affecting you, you get access to fixes more quickly than if you'd had to wait for a formal release) . The ability to be able to fix your products after shipping is incredibly useful and costs little to implement. I wouldn't touch a Brompton electric with a barge pole until they have proven themselves able to add this functionality.

 

[chriscross1966]

And tubeless rims!

While disc brakes could be great, although worry about the additional amount of crap they'd pick up being that bit lower down. Plus then, you really want to add through-axles, and perhaps Classified could do a 3-speed version of their hub gear, or just have an extra sprocket or two, and have electronic shifting. Would make rear-punctures less hassle on the side of the road.

I run custom-built disc Bromptons and they survive fine. Issue is price at initial purchase. I suspect the perfectly good Brompton twin pivot rim caliper costs a fraction of what the TRP Spyre2 that I would consider to be minimum spec for cable-actuated disc brakes once you factor in having the discs as well.. Add in the costs of new hub designs, new fork and triangle tooling, and the associated costs of either migrating the whole range (to keep production simple) or the complexity of adding one or both brakes as build options. Not going to happen any time soon unless we get lucky. I love my disc Bromptons but they're a chunk wider than standard when folded as they use 100/135mm hubs... and I've done stoppies on rim braked Bromptons with the current caliper, carbon rims and Clarks carbon pads .... the rim brakes work fine....

 

[Kell]

Carbon rims and pads are hardly 'normal' though.

I ran into the back of a car a couple of years ago simply because it was very wet and my my brakes had no stopping power.

I run Swissstop BXP Blue too - so not the standard pads.

No problems at all with them in the dry, I just think for a bike that gets used all year around, discs should definitely be a consideration.

Despite your assertions above, they must be considering them as they've featured in the last couple of surveys.

It's probably the one thing that would persuade me to get another Brompton (not that I'm indicative of every owner).

 

[berlinonaut]

I ran into the back of a car a couple of years ago simply because it was very wet and my my brakes had no stopping power.

Was this with a Brompton with modern brakes? The only situation ever where I've reached the limit of the Brompton Dual Pivots was running down a very (!) steep hill over a longer distance with a 30kg+ trailer attached - in this situation an emergency stop would not have been possible as the trailer pushed harder than the brakes could consume comfortably and constantly.
In no other situation did I have a problem and I have been running my Brommi throughout the year for way more than a decade in all wether, traffic and load conditions and on all terrains (including the alps). From experience I defintively consider the Dual Pivots to be absolutely sufficient in all situations apart from extreme loads or very long very steep descents - wich both are still possible but request a slight adjustment in riding style.

If you bang into the back of a car I'd assume the reason being rather more your riding style not being adequate to weather, traffic conditions and possibly your bike than rim brakes being the root cause. The more as especially in the wet most brakes are easily able to block the wheel - more brake power is not possible, thus disc brakes would not make the situation different here. If your rim brakes don't brake in the wet and we are talking about Brompton Dual Pivots it may be cheap or very old (hardened) pads or improper adjustement, not the fact that you are using a rim brake.
I cannot judge finally but to me your story sounds more like a user failure than a technology issue...

I run Swissstop BXP Blue too - so not the standard pads.

Did you use them in the situation above, too? As they have not been on the market or popular for too long already I am wondering how this fits you "a couple of years ago".

Carbon rims and pads are hardly 'normal' though.

In case you have been running carbon rims with normal pads the reason is obvious: They are an improper match - there is a reason why there are special pads for carbon rims and still as far as I can judge carbon rims are not the best idea in combination with rim brakes. Brompton do however not have carbom rims from factory, so not much to complain...

 

[Kell]

Did you use them in the situation above, too? As they have not been on the market or popular for too long already I am wondering how this fits you "a couple of years ago".

Yes - I've been using Swissstop Blue since my original pads ran out. A two-second google search pulls up BXP pads from 2011 , so I don't know why you think they're new...

https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycl...ssstop-racepro-brake-blocks-bxp/10787982.html

And yes, my bike has the more modern brakes.

I don't know why you find it hard to believe or that whenever you've not experienced something it must be user error. Brakes were properly adjusted and, as I said, I never had a problem with the rim brakes in the dry. But ... this was absolutely torrential. I was filtering by the side of traffic so wasn't going too fast for what I thought my braking distance was. Conservative estimate would be that I was travelling at sub 7mph , but there was just nothing when I pulled the brakes.

Having run two almost identical bikes (a Dahon Matrix 2008 and a Dahon Matrix 2009) for commuting, I can confidently say that even mechanical discs are better than rim brakes in those sorts of conditions. I'd like to wager that the Brompton's smaller wheels make it even more likely that any water is still on the rims compared to a 26" wheel. I'd be staggered if a disc-equipped Brompton wasn't better in those conditions.

In case you have been running carbon rims with normal pads the reason is obvious: They are an improper match - there is a reason why there are special pads for carbon rims and still as far as I can judge carbon rims are not the best idea in combination with rim brakes. Brompton do however not have carbom rims from factory, so not much to complain...

This wasn't me, it was in response to Chris saying that 'rim brakes work fine' when he's using carbon wheels and pads.

 

[Pale Rider]

The old style brakes on my Brompton were poor in comparison with other push bikes I've ridden.

Although I've never ridden another 16" wheel bike, so I wonder to what extent the Brompton's little wheels restrict its braking ability.

I've done a handful of journeys on a Brompton with the latest brakes.

A worthwhile improvement, although still not up to the standard of a big wheel bike with hydraulic discs.

The wider tyres on my big wheel bikes may make the biggest difference.

 

[Gunk]

The old style brakes on my Brompton were poor in comparison with other push bikes I've ridden.

Although I've never ridden another 16" wheel bike, so I wonder to what extent the Brompton's little wheels restrict its braking ability.

I've done a handful of journeys on a Brompton with the latest brakes.

A worthwhile improvement, although still not up to the standard of a big wheel bike with hydraulic discs.

The wider tyres on my big wheel bikes may make the biggest difference.

The original single pivot side pull callipers were terrible, the later brakes are dual pivot and a huge improvement.

 

[roley poley]

the aquaplane of brake blocks on rims during a downpour can catch you out, I find myself constantly squeezing the water out with low pressure on the levers till I find the bite point and know where it hopefully is when I need it