In praise of titanium - and Spa Cycles

[Yellow Saddle]

Another small point .... a double diamond frame is not truly 2 triangles, it's one Triangle and one Rhomboid, so it's not unrealistic to suggest that a frame has vertical compliance and this will be dimension and material dependent.

Correct.
Also, the rear "triangle" is not a truss, but a spaceframe, assuming good contact between frame and hub. But we have to be realistic about how much flex it gives. The answer is less than the individual flex in tyres, or saddle. There's a good reason why MTBs have suspension. Frames just don't provide any.

 

[Globalti]

More on that Ti Global.... it was bike shop Ride On's first attempt at a titanium hardtail and it rode nicely, with the exception that the top and downtubes joined the headtube together, so close that the headtube was poorly braced and titanium being a pretty flexible material, you could be riding along and look down to see the entire fork, head tube and stem springing back and forth alarmingly. I was worried that fatigue would eventually make something break. The next batch had a longer head tube with top and downtube separated by a couple of inches so as to brace better. I bought the Mk2 frame and found that this stiffened up the front end and improved the handling noticeably, which showed me how a designer has to take account of the characteristics of the material. I still have it, though I don't ride off road nowadays; can't be bothered with the driving and the mud.

 

[Pale Rider]

Van Nicholas, who of course are trying to flog ti frames, list the benefits here:

http://www.vannicholas.com/32/2/material comparison/content.aspx

And a bit more here:

http://www.vannicholas.com/34/2/titanium properties/content.aspx

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Van Nicholas, who of course are trying to flog ti frames, list the benefits here:

http://www.vannicholas.com/32/2/material comparison/content.aspx

And a bit more here:

http://www.vannicholas.com/34/2/titanium properties/content.aspx

I had a quick look at the benefits and they are all bogus except for the corrosion issue.

I hope I didn't piss on your battery with this discussion on titanium. Lust should always over-ride logic. If you like it, get it.

 

[Pale Rider]

I had a quick look at the benefits and they are all bogus except for the corrosion issue.

I hope I didn't piss on your battery with this discussion on titanium. Lust should always over-ride logic. If you like it, get it.

As I said earlier, no worries.

Cycling is about freedom and should be a broad church.

Equally, posters on here should be able to post what they genuinely think about a topic, which is all you've done.

Even though Van Nic clearly have a vested interest in titanium, they are also a respected bike maker.

You will struggle to convince me - and I suspect most posters on here - that their listed benefits are 'all bogus'.

Some marketing puff, sure, but the ride quality of the Adventure bike was obvious to me.

I didn't set out to buy a ti bike, and don't especially lust after it.

Painted ally or steel - in colours I like - looks just as well to me.

I might test a couple of other bikes locally.

You may rest assured I will buy the one I like best, whatever it is made of.

 

[jowwy]

Isnt it strange how a person continually rebukes everyones claims as bollocks and only his opinion should stand

I have Ti bikes, alloy bike and no longer a steel bike. All bikes were 54cm frames.

All bikes had the same 28spoke, h son rims on novatech hubs, with 25mm tyres

All 3 bikes had the same length headtube, top tube and seat tube

All 3 bikes had the same length wheelbase and all angles of headtube, seattube and fork rake.

The Ti was by far the most comfortable and smoother of the 3 too ride.......go figure

 

[mythste]

Isnt it strange how a person continually rebukes everyones claims as bollocks and only his opinion should stand

I just want to make note that a lot of the information/opinion was backed up with some quite interesting facts. I've learnt something from this thread and will use the information appropriately and proportionately when I inevitably start thinking about N+1.

 

[Pale Rider]

I just want to make note that a lot of the information/opinion was backed up with some quite interesting facts. I've learnt something from this thread and will use the information appropriately and proportionately when I inevitably start thinking about N+1.

Wise words.

What I describe as the 'comfort and smoothness' of ti may not suit everyone.

Some riders might prefer a more 'connected' ride.

But I would recommend anyone to have a go on a ti bike, assuming there's something suitable in their budget.

 

[Onyer]

I have owned an alli bike in the past - never again as the road buzz made my hands go numb and I just felt tired after every ride. I have ridden a number of carbon bikes and they all felt much better. I own a Spesh Roubaix, which is a great bike. I have also owned an Enigma Etape Ti bike that had the same groupset and wheels as the Spesh. A great bike and very comfortable to ride, with the added bonus that it can carry a rack and panniers for light touring. I now have a Ti bike that I had made in China - also a great bike and very comfy to ride.
CTC did a very favourable review of Spa cycles Ti bike http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_member/201107062.pdf
Also one comparing to Van Nics Mistral http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_member/201103054.pdf

 

[potsy]

You imagined it, that is the only rational explanation

Mmm, I always imagined that my 'forever' bike would be a nice comfortable Ti bike at some stage.

Maybe I need to reconsider if YS's comments are true, though most of the people on here that ride Ti seem to contradict that opinion, surely they can't all be wrong?

 

[Dogtrousers]

Warning: Non scientific, "I may not know much about engineering, but it's common sense innit" post follows.

Somebody may have said this above, but to my non-engineering eye, the vast majority of vibration absorption will be done in the tyres, the wheels, the saddle and the handlebars. Possibly also the fork if it's an old fashioned curved one. Any contribution of the frame is going to be small compared with these, because it's made of stiff material with lots of triangles. There'll be some give in the joints, and possibly flex in the chainstays/give in the seatstays (esp if they are those wibbly seat stays).

But overall it's the springy things that are going to do most of the absorbing. Not the rigid things. So you're only going to get a relatively small advange (dare I say "marginal gain") from different frame materials.

 

[Milkfloat]

I don't think we have really dealt with the issue of vibration fully. I suspect that the compliant ride is the one that doesn't have resonant frequencies we find unpleasant.

I fully agree - should a bike be measured by the amount of deflection of the frame material or is the nature of its deflection? I think it is the nature of the movement (i.e. buzz) rather than the scale of the movement.

I remember the introduction of the rubber band or plug in tennis racket handles. They were a great introduction in my opinion as they minimized vibration significantly. I have experience with different materials in hockey sticks. Here you were guaranteed far more vibration from aluminium sticks (which incidentally had a wooden head and a rubber grip) compared to wood and carbon fibre.

 

[jowwy]

i wonder why golf club manufacturers changed from using steel in the driver heads to titanium and therefore being able to make bigger heads, for less weight? also with the introduction of the titanium club heads, also came the introduction the COR effect ( due to the springy nature of the titanium clubface).......all those things make me feel that not all findings can be proclaimed to be bullshit/bollocks by the manufacturers of said titanium frames

 

[Shadow]

Once upon a time, a chap bought a bike - nothing special, it had 2 wheels, served its purpose and did not break. He liked this cycling lark, so bought an entry level road bike - aluminium being the major material. He liked this even more and bought a carbon bike. It broke and is considered irreparable. He bought a replacement - lo, it was titanium. He loves this bike best of all and continually finds nuances on the awful county wide road surfaces that still, 4 years later, satisfy him that buying ti was a good move.
He still uses all the bikes above but the ti is the best. Regardless of the science. Yes, of course, I am biased.

Ultimately, buy what you like. You seem to be of this persuasion. I do not think you will be disappointed.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I don't think we have really dealt with the issue of vibration fully. I suspect that the compliant ride is the one that doesn't have resonant frequencies we find unpleasant.

I agree with the notion and I suspect there is some truth in it. Lots of work has been done on that front in occupational health studies on vibration and industrial tools measure the vibration and recommend a daily exposure limit.

But so far no-one has come up with that range of resonance frequencies that feel unpleasant, or have an effect on fatigue in cyclists. Also unlike occupational vibration, no cyclists have ever been diagnosed with vibrational nerve damage, which has to tell us that the vibration is extremely small on the various contact points. In blind tests that a German cycling magazine did on frame materials, the result was significantly skewed in favour of none of the testers could accurately match the materials to the bike they are riding.