DRHysted
Guru
Get a motorcycle (ICE or Electric), no sweating, reduced road damage, expense, able to slip through most traffic.
Over powered bikes that are resticted.
- Thread starter phil-b
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Get a motorcycle (ICE or Electric), no sweating, reduced road damage, expense, able to slip through most traffic.
What’s your fitness like? As mentioned your commute sounds well within the scope of a normal bike.
However I'm not posting to put you off the idea of an ebike, I think they're a fantastic invention.
I spent a few years commuting on my non electric hybrid but the last mile up the hill on the way home was really putting me off. I'd be knackered by then and I was struggling to maintain 6mph at the steepest bit, often with strong headwinds, and with rush hour traffic and having to pass parked cars at little more than walking pace I didn't feel safe. The e-bike was the answer and getting one was one of the best things I've done.
I've now got two, an Orbea Gain e-road bike with the Mahle rear hub motor and a Cube Reaction hardtail e-MTB, with the Bosch Performance Line motor. I've got the Cube kitted out with rack and mudguards as a do anything machine. Two very different beasts though.
The Gain weighs something like 15-16kg and a claimed 44nm torque and the Cube 25+ but a claimed 85nm. The Bosch motor also has the ability to temporarily "overboost" while still remaining legal as the motor is rated to 250w continuous. It certainly shifts you in turbo or e-mtb mode and is no slouch in the lower modes either. But the weight and the heavy knobbly tyres make it a pain to go above 15 mph unless downhill so you tend to go everywhere at 15. On the Gain as it's lighter with road tyres and lower torque, I often don't notice the cutoff unless I'm going up a steep hill. It's a much more fun ride on tarmac, but the Cube is obviously more fun off road.
You have to put more effort in with the Mahle system, but it's still a welcome boost. Depends on your weight and fitness but on a 10-12% I'd have no problem on the Gain on L2 or L3 assistance, but above 16% or so does get quite hard even on max. The Cube I've cycled up 20% gravel ramps and it felt like getting a tow from a ski-lift!
If I could only have one e-bike I'd probably have a hybrid with the Mahle hub motor, like the Orbea Vibe or Raleigh Trace.
Drago
Legendary Member
Thr 85NM claims are laughable - that's small car levels of torque.
Such claims rely on the fact that unlike for cars there is no universally accepted or legislated method for measuring or quoting torque in bicycles, so they trot out any old bollards without legal consequence.
Such claims rely on the fact that unlike for cars there is no universally accepted or legislated method for measuring or quoting torque in bicycles, so they trot out any old bollards without legal consequence.
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
Torque cannot be taken in isolation, you need to also consider power.
Most even semi-legal ebike motors put out a fraction of a brake horsepower.
If your ebike had as much power as one of your many motor vehicles, it would 'go' just as well.
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Pale Rider
Legendary Member
Power, measured in watts, is also quoted, but given that's the same for all legal ebikes it doesn't get quite the same prominence.
The torque numbers don't mean a lot to me, even if they were nailed on reliable.
Although as @Dadam says, his 85nm Bosch bike has noticeably more torque than his lower rated Mahle bike.
So for comparison purposes the figures do give a prospective buyer an indication of what to expect.
They’re definitely being a bit disingenuous but I don’t believe it’s that simple. The Cube plausibly feels to have double the shove of the Gain.
85nm is a force of 85 newtons applied 1 metre from the pivot. A newton is roughly the force exerted by gravity on 0.1 kg. So something with a mass of 1 kg “weighs” 10 newtons (closer to 9.8 but 10 is more convenient). A 100kg cyclist standing on the pedal exerts a downward force of 1000 newtons. If we use a crank length of 175mm that equates to a torque of 175nm! How does that help contextualise the torque claims? 🤷♂️
85nm is a force of 85 newtons applied 1 metre from the pivot. A newton is roughly the force exerted by gravity on 0.1 kg. So something with a mass of 1 kg “weighs” 10 newtons (closer to 9.8 but 10 is more convenient). A 100kg cyclist standing on the pedal exerts a downward force of 1000 newtons. If we use a crank length of 175mm that equates to a torque of 175nm! How does that help contextualise the torque claims? 🤷♂️
Drago
Legendary Member
Max sustained power...
It's all smoke and mirrors whichever way ine tries to spin it, and that won't change until legislation demands it.
And even for comparison purposes it's bunk.
My 60NM Suntour feels as strong, if not better in some measures, at moving my bulk as my 80NM Bosch equipped bike. Two different manufacturers, two different ideas of honesty, that's all it is.
ebikeerwidnes
Guru
Certainly the bikes I see with hub motors the size of dinner plates can drive up hills that would have me grinding up in low gear with my legal Bosch ebike
So they have more of something
I think there needs to be a more defined standard for the motors - and something that is easily tested rather than something that- I suspect - several qualified engineers could argue about they legality for hours!
Preferably something where a simple device could be carried in the back of a cop car so apply a simple indicative test - although I suspect that will not happen
So they have more of something
I think there needs to be a more defined standard for the motors - and something that is easily tested rather than something that- I suspect - several qualified engineers could argue about they legality for hours!
Preferably something where a simple device could be carried in the back of a cop car so apply a simple indicative test - although I suspect that will not happen
dicko
Guru
Hi Phil-b, I bought and fitted the Cytronex C-1 kit to my Hybrid Claude Butler which I have owned for twelve years now. I spent £1k on the kit and when it arrived found all parts are of a high quality. It has six power levels which make easy work of the Derbyshire hills and it is completely road legal here in UK. Cytronex do offer the kit in America which is higher powered for their roads you can purchase this kit in UK but you will need to sign a disclaimer when you purchase the USA kit.
Attachments
The paragraph was correct, in stating the default position.
There are then exemptions from that default for certain e-bikes, as specified in his next paragraph.
Legal e-bikes are not barred from cycle paths.
So far as the law is concerned, they are regarded just the same as a purely human-powered bike.
classic33
Leg End Member
He never said legal e-bikes, you did.
The problem however is recognising which are illegal. And an overpowered one, which the thread is about, would be illegal for use on the roads. And certainly barred from legally using cycle paths.
Electric_Andy
Heavy Metal Fan
I had the same issue when I first got a legal ebike. You can average 11-15mph on the flat without breaking a sweat. Up a decent hill then you'll have to put in 50-60% of the work you would on a standard bike. I also found that the electric assist on its own was too slow, I got impatient and would end up putting in 95% of the work, hence arriving to work sweaty.
Had I let the motor do all of the work, I would be far slower than someone on a pushbike, but it can be done, just with some extra effort on the hills.
This is why for years I have always said that it would be far easier and attractive to have the laws changed to 500w motor, but still restricted to 15mph before cut-out, as the only times you really need the power is up hills, and the legal power limit at the moment is only beneficial on the flat, where you don't really need it at all
classic33
Leg End Member
Important to note that the current regulations were drawn up to standardise regulations across the EU, meaning your e-assist bike would be legal in all EU countries. Motor power and top speed were not the same in all countries.
Worth noting that if we drop out of the current agreed regulations, we'll drop back to the old UK regulations, with the lower top speed.
Worth noting that if we drop out of the current agreed regulations, we'll drop back to the old UK regulations, with the lower top speed.
