There is no way I'll ever get Di2

[Drago]

That exactly the reason it does interest me - unnecessary complexity.

 

[screenman]

THIS^^^^
Stuff that should be simple just needs constant support. We spend more and more time fixing things that are supposed to 'improve' our day to day lives and make things better. Somehow the argument for having this tech just doesn't stack up!

Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!

I cannot figure this out, if you do not like it why own it, you can still buy old bangers. Ever since auto boxes were invented you had or should have changed gearbox oil. Quite happy myself with all the so called mod cons, my rose tinted glasses tinted over a long while back.

As for fixing things more often I have been in the motor trade for 47 years and can certainly remember service every 3,000 miles, clutches seldom lasting 30,000 miles cars worn out at 60,000 and the list goes on.

 

[Dirk]

The reason I won't get Di2 is because I don't want yet another device that does software updates, has a million configuration options, gets a software update and changes the menu items around.

You don't have to do updates.
I've had Di2 for 4 years and it has never been touched from when it left the shop. Still works as well as the day I bought it.
I wonder how many mechanical systems can claim that?

 

[Drago]

It's like hyrpdraulic disc brakes They (usually) work very well, they're relatively maintenance free, do not require periodic adjustment. When things are going well they're absolutely peachy.

But when they do start acting up or fail you may suddenly find yourself wistfully longing for the simplicity of a cable that takes seconds to change without specialist equipment or tools, even if it does mean you have then spend a whole 2 seconds twiddling a barrel adjusted every 6 or 8 weeks.

Theres no better or worse in the long run. Ying eventually counters yang. The Lord giveth, and the Lord sooner or later taketh away.

 

[screenman]

It's like hyrpdraulic disc brakes They (usually) work very well, they're relatively maintenance free, do not require periodic adjustment. When things are going well they're absolutely peachy.

But when they do start acting up or fail you may suddenly find yourself wistfully longing for the simplicity of a cable that takes seconds to change without specialist equipment or tools, even if it does mean you have then spend a whole 2 seconds twiddling a barrel adjusted every 6 or 8 weeks.

Theres no better or worse in the long run. Ying eventually counters yang. The Lord giveth, and the Lord sooner or later taketh away.

But would you like cable drum brakes on your motorbike?

 

[Drago]

But would you like cable drum brakes on your motorbike?

I have owned many a motorbike with cable actuated drums.

In any case, the comparison bears no scrutiny. Motorcycles are far heavier, travel at typically much greater velocities, and the kinetic energy, frictional forces, and heat by product are all correspondingly much greater.

I have absolutely no objection to electronic gear shifting - practical, philosophical, financial or otherwise.

If the internet had been around in 1910 or thereabouts Henri Desgrange would have been posting "There's no way I'll ever get a freewheel"

I've no objection- as pointed out in my original post, I acknowledge that they are astonishing pieces of technology. They're just not for me, bring me no tangible benefit personally, and dont turn me on. Every single rider is correct as regards their own personal needs, requirements and tastes - the sole objection I do have is someone with flashy electrinic bike bling telling me I'm wrong, out of date, a neanderthal, etc. I'm not wrong at all, I'm just an individual.

I also pointed out that they're not a panacea - when things fail, and inevitably they will sooner or later - the solutions are often more complex, technologically advanced, and thus difficult and expensive as well.

For every benefit theres a draw back, and I heartily acknowledge that every riders favoured point on the benefit -drawback spectrum will be different, and all power to each and every one of them.

 

[byegad]

I could no longer own a car without cruise control, or that I couldn't retrofit it to.

Me too, that and an automatic gearbox on our Hybrid make any journey easy.

 

[postman]

when things fail, and inevitably they will sooner or later - the solutions are often more complex, technologically advanced, and thus difficult and expensive as well.

Reminds me of a story.A man goes to visit his wife's rich relatives in America.He is taken on a tour of the farm,in the family car.His host is telling him our farm is so big,in this car it takes us eight hours to drive around it.The blokes turns to his host and says my car was like that,i finally changed it for a more reliable one.

 

[I like Skol]

I cannot figure this out, if you do not like it why own it, you can still buy old bangers. Ever since auto boxes were invented you had or should have changed gearbox oil. Quite happy myself with all the so called mod cons, my rose tinted glasses tinted over a long while back.

As for fixing things more often I have been in the motor trade for 47 years and can certainly remember service every 3,000 miles, clutches seldom lasting 30,000 miles cars worn out at 60,000 and the list goes on.

I have both and you know it! I don't mind technology, it's poor tech that is unnecessarily complicated that gets my goat!

As an example from above, changing the gearbox oil on my wife's auto Audi. You have to over-fill the oil, then start the engine, plug in your computer (you do have the required proprietary interface hardware/software don't you?) and navigate to the gearbox oil temp reading, open the level plug and then wait until the oil temp reaches the required heat before refitting the level/drain plug. Stupidly complex and requiring kit that only specialist garages or the main dealer possess. There is absolutely no reason that Audi couldn't use a conventional level plug set at ambient temp with the engine off to do this, but the cynical side of me knows that they can't make money on the servicing that way, so build in a system that forces owners to bring the cars back to them!

Another example of poor tech that is back on topic and cycling related. I have a Garmin for cycle navigation. It's a great piece of kit that has transformed the ease with which I can plan and traverse a new route into an area I haven't been to before. For a dozen rides it will perform almost faultlessly apart from the occasional loss of signal in very hilly or tree covered areas. The next time I go out it will reset all the routing options and start trying to re-route and recalculate at almost every turn rather than follow the route I have pre-loaded. Why does it occasionally decide to change all the settings? It is a perfect example of good tech but poorly executed. It all looks good on paper, but in reality once in the real world many of these ideas are just not implemented with enough robustness to work reliably. Infuriating, but we put up with it by increasing the amount of effort we have to put into making these things work, the things that are supposed to be making life easier/better. Everytime I set out on a ride with my Garmin now I have to try and remember to go into the routing options and check it is still set to the way I want it.....

 

[nickAKA]

Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!

It's the implementation in cars that's the problem, and for a mega industry like the automotive sector I think it's disgusting. Case in point; I get 2 warning lights on in my car when it's cold like today - the 4x4 light & the anti skid control - which then basically knocks these gizmos off EXACTLY WHEN YOU NEED THEM. Do an error code scan and it tells you nothing of what the ACTUAL fault is*. Yeah they've made them clever but not clever enough to tell the difference between a dodgy sensor and a catastrophic failure? Come on... Drives me absolutely f*$%ing mad that.

(*I think I know what the actual fault is and it's one of those £30 fixes that the dealer would charge £1000 to replace a serviceable part, another source of massive irritation)

 

[screenman]

I think the DSG box is far better than an old Both Warner which I used to work on. The last time I had an oil change on a DSG it cost me £25 labour good value.

 

[Johnno260]

Sat in a brand new car last week and I know this makes me sound like a doddering old fart, but all I could think was WHY? And how are you supposed to even concentrate on driving when all those 'systems' are trying to get your attention and communicate with you continuously. It even beeped and flashed everytime I drove past a lamp post (or that's what it seemed to be doing).

I actually pushed the Missus that I needed an "old" car to replace the previous one, I was looking at MK2/3 Golfs as they're pretty robust, she insisted upon something newer, while I like the car, I hate the techno aspect of it, her car is even worse screens etc everywhere, sensors coming out the wazoo and when one fails the car acts like a spoilt brat.

 

[Drago]

I have both and you know it! I don't mind technology, it's poor tech that is unnecessarily complicated that gets my goat!

As an example from above, changing the gearbox oil on my wife's auto Audi. You have to over-fill the oil, then start the engine, plug in your computer (you do have the required proprietary interface hardware/software don't you?) and navigate to the gearbox oil temp reading, open the level plug and then wait until the oil temp reaches the required heat before refitting the level/drain plug. Stupidly complex and requiring kit that only specialist garages or the main dealer possess. There is absolutely no reason that Audi couldn't use a conventional level plug set at ambient temp with the engine off to do this, but the cynical side of me knows that they can't make money on the servicing that way, so build in a system that forces owners to bring the cars back to them!

Another example of poor tech that is back on topic and cycling related. I have a Garmin for cycle navigation. It's a great piece of kit that has transformed the ease with which I can plan and traverse a new route into an area I haven't been to before. For a dozen rides it will perform almost faultlessly apart from the occasional loss of signal in very hilly or tree covered areas. The next time I go out it will reset all the routing options and start trying to re-route and recalculate at almost every turn rather than follow the route I have pre-loaded. Why does it occasionally decide to change all the settings? It is a perfect example of good tech but poorly executed. It all looks good on paper, but in reality once in the real world many of these ideas are just not implemented with enough robustness to work reliably. Infuriating, but we put up with it by increasing the amount of effort we have to put into making these things work, the things that are supposed to be making life easier/better. Everytime I set out on a ride with my Garmin now I have to try and remember to go into the routing options and check it is still set to the way I want it.....

On the Smart auto box there's no torque converter. Drain it out the bottom, refill it at the top. Mercedes paid a lot of attention to access and ease of maintenance, which was uncharateristically nice of them.

My old Rover P6 V8 you needed a pump to get the new oil in, or about 1/3 of the old oil would remain in the torque converter. Case in point - those old auto boxes were complex but amazing, very strong, very reliable, but when you did have to pay them some kind of attention it was relatively complicated and required tools one wouldn't ordinarily need.

I think the DSG box is far better than an old Both Warner which I used to work on. The last time I had an oil change on a DSG it cost me £25 labour good value.

But when the clutch pack goes there are 2 of them, in the order of £2000 to replace. Great stuff, but when they really do need attention you know about it.

Technology for technology's sake again - when things are going swimmingly it's amazing, but when things go wrong you may end up wishing you had more conventional technology instead. Every persons need or tolerance will be different, and the position of their slider on the benefit-drawback spectrum will be differ, but the benefit-drawback ratio is a genuine consideration, one that is too sadly often overlooked. That's why theres no "right" answer, only the solution that suits the needs and wants of each individual.

 

[DCBassman]

Me too, that and an automatic gearbox on our Hybrid make any journey easy.

Yup, auto as well if poss.

 

[screenman]

On the Smart auto box there's no torque converter. Drain it out the bottom, refill it at the top. Mercedes paid a lot of attention to access and ease of maintenance, which was uncharateristically nice of them.

My old Rover P6 V8 you needed a pump to get the new oil in, or about 1/3 of the old oil would remain in the torque converter. Case in point - those old auto boxes were complex but amazing, very strong, very reliable, but when you did have to pay them some kind of attention it was relatively complicated and required tools one wouldn't ordinarily need.



But when the clutch pack goes there are 2 of them, in the order of £2000 to replace. Great stuff, but when they really do need attention you know about it.

Technology for technology's sake again - when things are going swimmingly it's amazing, but when things go wrong you may end up wishing you had more conventional technology instead. Every persons need or tolerance will be different, and the position of their slider on the benefit-drawback spectrum will be differ, but the benefit-drawback ratio is a genuine consideration, one that is too sadly often overlooked. That's why theres no "right" answer, only the solution that suits the needs and wants of each individual.

Do you have the twin clutch one or the older one, the twin clutch is a different animal.