20 mph speed limit.

[PK99]

There is normally a 30 sign anywhere it changes from another limit to 30. Because t is the default limit for restricted roads, there is no need for repeaters.

Legislation forbids 30mph repeaters

 

[Alex321]

There won’t be that many to replace and that’s where the minor costs in the scheme of things come from.

It isn't the cost, it is whether it is feasible to change them all overnight. "Not that many" is still going to be several thousand across Wales.

I live in a pretty small village, and there are still 5 places where there are 30 signs on entry - 4 of those with a sign each side of the road, so 9 signs.

Though I think they are being "economic" with the cost/benefit they are giving. They say it will cost £33 million (not all of which is signs of course), and estimate it will save £58 million in medical costs - but that latter is over 30 years, so a fraction under £2 million a year.

 

[cougie uk]

There are good arguments against speed humps. Imagine being in the back of an ambulance being rushed to hospital. The repair bill for police vehicles ruined by taking them at speed in pursuit of ne’er-do-wells is eye-wateringly high. There is an environmental cost of higher fuel consumption because vehicles slow down and then speed up again. Not to mention that the type of driver who we REALLY want to slow down, the inconsiderate ones who don’t seem to care about anyone else on the road, are exactly the same drivers who don’t give a rats arse about speed bumps and go bouncing over them like they are not there…!

The cost of a fatal road accident is about a million quid I believe so I'm sure the savings from that would pay for a few suspension systems.

And if your life is dependent on an ambulance not showing down for speed bumps - then you'll be screwed if you hit traffic.

How much extra fuel consumption is there caused by speed bumps ? That must pale into insignificance compared to congestion.

 

[BoldonLad]

It isn't the cost, it is whether it is feasible to change them all overnight. "Not that many" is still going to be several thousand across Wales.

I live in a pretty small village, and there are still 5 places where there are 30 signs on entry - 4 of those with a sign each side of the road, so 9 signs.

Though I think they are being "economic" with the cost/benefit they are giving. They say it will cost £33 million (not all of which is signs of course), and estimate it will save £58 million in medical costs - but that latter is over 30 years, so a fraction under £2 million a year.

No-one actually believes these supposed "savings' put out by Government do they? How will they monitor it?; will they monitor it?

 

[Alex321]

Legislation forbids 30mph repeaters

There are ways around that.

If they ever have a camera van in the area, they can put up speed camera signs, which are allowed to show the limit, such as this one just outside Merthyr Tydfil, where I used to live
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.767...4!1sC0OGp7tOyOiSSxrZnXviXQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[PK99]

There are ways around that.

If they ever have a camera van in the area, they can put up speed camera signs, which are allowed to show the limit, such as this one just outside Merthyr Tydfil, where I used to live
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.767...4!1sC0OGp7tOyOiSSxrZnXviXQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

House of Commons Library note:
This note explains the law regarding the use of 30 mph repeater signs in urban areas.

30 mph repeater signs are not permitted on restricted roads; these are roads where there are street lights not more than 200 yards apart. The rules as to the use of repeater signs on roads with other speed limits were relaxed in 2012.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

It isn't the cost, it is whether it is feasible to change them all overnight. "Not that many" is still going to be several thousand across Wales.

Is it necessary to achieve it “overnight“ as you say or would over a week be more realistic?

 

[Alex321]

House of Commons Library note:
This note explains the law regarding the use of 30 mph repeater signs in urban areas.

30 mph repeater signs are not permitted on restricted roads; these are roads where there are street lights not more than 200 yards apart. The rules as to the use of repeater signs on roads with other speed limits were relaxed in 2012.

I know. Not that a House of Commons Library Note actually has any meaning in law. The actual legislation is Here. And in this respect, in the general Directions for Schedule 10, it says:
"2. The sign must not be placed as a repeater sign where the road is subject to a maximum speed limit of 30 mph and has a system of carriageway lighting."

But as I said, there are ways around it. Technically, those camera signs are not repeaters. And nor are the signs that flash an illuminated 30 when you approach. But both serve the same effect when a council wants to remind people.

Diagram 880 in Schedule 11 of the same legislation is the speed camera sign, and there are no restrictions on where it may be placed.

 

[Alex321]

Is it necessary to achieve it “overnight“ as you say or would over a week be more realistic?

IT would, but then do you have that period with speed limits being unenforceable, or do you need a separate TRO for each one, since they will come into force at different times over that period.

The legislation comes into force on one specific date - 17th September 2023. The actual legislation is here.

There is a lot of information about costs, benefits and assumptions here. Apparently 30,000 signs will need replacing (with about 5000 needing new posts), plus another 2,500 new signs. And there are also road markings to be dealt with.

There doesn't appear to be any mention in those documents about the timescales of replacing signs, or what the situation will be during the period when they are being replaced.

 

[lazybloke]

There are good arguments against speed humps. Imagine being in the back of an ambulance being rushed to hospital. The repair bill for police vehicles ruined by taking them at speed in pursuit of ne’er-do-wells is eye-wateringly high. There is an environmental cost of higher fuel consumption because vehicles slow down and then speed up again. Not to mention that the type of driver who we REALLY want to slow down, the inconsiderate ones who don’t seem to care about anyone else on the road, are exactly the same drivers who don’t give a rats arse about speed bumps and go bouncing over them like they are not there…!

I've been that patient in the back of an ambulance with a massive leg laceration.
The jolting from each speed hump was awful, but braking was worse because it made me slide forward (feet first) into the bulkhead - so my dodgy leg was taking every single impact. Over and over again.
Not a happy memory.

 

[Chislenko]

I have driven many cars with cruise control and have yet to drive one that works as low as 20. My current car cruise doesn't kick in until above 25.

Must admit have never tried the limiter set to 20, may give it a go and see if it works as we have 20 limits in our village and it really is a devil to keep the car down to 20.


However, the most efficient (and adhered to) speed restriction initiative I have see is the Velocidade Controlada you find in Portugal.

Everybody obeys the speed limit as if they don't the lights just turn to red and you have to stop.

It's a great system and surprised more countries don't use it.


https://ideas.4brad.com/portugals-velocidade-controlada-speed-control-traffic-signals

 

[Alex321]

I have driven many cars with cruise control and have yet to drive one that works as low as 20. My current car cruise doesn't kick in until above 25.

Must admit have never tried the limiter set to 20, may give it a go and see if it works as we have 20 limits in our village and it really is a devil to keep the car down to 20.

What surprised me, reading the documents I linked above, was that they expect the average free-flow traffic speed in the 20 limits to fall by just 5mph from the free-flow speed as it is in a 30 limit - from 31mph to 26mph.

So they intend introducing this limit in the full knowledge that it will normally be exceeded.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

So they intend introducing this limit in the full knowledge that it will normally be exceeded. reduce traffic speeds by a worthwhile amount

Corrected for you.

*ALL* speed limits are frequently exceeded. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

This seems to be a point missed by people who rail against 20mph - if it reduces speeds (it does) then it's worthwhile.

 

[Andy in Germany]

However, the most efficient (and adhered to) speed restriction initiative I have see is the Velocidade Controlada you find in Portugal.

Everybody obeys the speed limit as if they don't the lights just turn to red and you have to stop.

It's a great system and surprised more countries don't use it.

We have that here, it's called the "Grüne Welle"; the green wave.

 

[Dogtrousers]

20 limits are widespread in suburban London. I see them being flagrantly ignored in the early morning when traffic is low. But during the day a combination of weight of traffic and on street parking/loading acts as natural traffic calming, plus drivers who do reduce their speed makes them appear to me to be quite effective. I think they are generally a good thing.

However, the most efficient (and adhered to) speed restriction initiative I have see is the Velocidade Controlada you find in Portugal.

Everybody obeys the speed limit as if they don't the lights just turn to red and you have to stop.

It's a great system and surprised more countries don't use it.

https://ideas.4brad.com/portugals-velocidade-controlada-speed-control-traffic-signals

If I've understood correctly I think I've seen similar in France.