Charlie Alliston case - fixie rider accused of causing pedestrian death

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srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
I, for one,

Agree on the first part but is the second part entirely true? I've always presumed that judges are constrained in what they can say in that they have to accept the jury verdict.
Fair point. My take is that the jury has decided that the specific incident fell under the heading of "Wanton and furious driving" - he was specifically dangerous when he hit his victim. The judge, in her sentencing remarks (which I excerpted earlier in the thread) has decided that he was generally a dangerous rider. "An accident waiting to happen", in her phrase.

It's certainly not true, I think, as someone claimed, that no-one is suggesting he was dangerous.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
@srw I'm still not sure I understand what is dangerous about it, from the description he was cycling at 18mph whilst overtaking a parked lorry. Something I would do without issue albeit with brakes. I don't quite know how you can be "helplessly stranded" as a ped in that situation.

Mrs Briggs was stranded in the middle of the road as there was traffic approaching in both directions and a HGV to the left creating a pinch point. Alliston chose to proceed when it should have been clear to him that the pedestrian was in an invidious position - if he had braked hard he would have given Mrs Briggs the opportunity to return to the pavement. By continuing forward at speed he made the situation more dangerous than he needed to. You can argue that this is 20/20 hindsight, but where possible, braking to avoid a collision is usually preferable to swerving as it massively reduces the unpredictability factor of the other road user.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
My view is that we might get further by considering the extension of "Causing death by careless/dangerous..." laws to cover all kinds of locomotion.
Further to where? A certain muddy brown creek? It would be irresponsible of anyone with an interest in reducing road casualties to encourage the continuing distraction of farting around with more finely-graded penalties for cyclists injuring others while there are still such serious problems in getting Road Justice for the much larger number of cyclists who are injured by motorists.

It wouldn't address the tribal mentality of "Cyclists are automatically right and everyone else is automatically wrong" which has sadly surfaced in this and other discussions on various forums,
It's easy to insult any views you don't like by attributing to that mythical tribal mentality, but even those people here who think various aspects of this case are flawed haven't said Alliston was automatically right because he was cycling, have they?

but at least it might help level the playing field in legal terms.
:rofl: :banghead:
Are you just writing stuff that sounds fair or do you really honestly think that the legal playing field is currently tilted in cyclists' favour and needs tilting against them further to level it? :eek:
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
But that's not the legal situation. There are a range of possible charges depending on the outcome of the incident, from careless cycling through dangerous cycling up to the 'wanton and furious driving' (not cycling) or manslaughter.
That is true, but I think some of the controversy of this case could have been avoided had all laws been applicable to all road users.

I'm not sure that extending the scope of the offences of 'causing death by careless/dangerous driving' to cover cycling is the way forward. If anything, you might want to create similar offences for cyclists but the reality is that it is not considered necessary as so few people are killed by cyclists, and these deaths can be dealt with by existing legislation.
Yes, such offences can be dealt with by existing legislation, but I think this case demonstrates that there is something lacking when a crusty old "furious cycling" law needs to be dusted off. Laws are not updated only when it is not possible to use old legislation, but should also be (and frequently are) updated to bring legislation forward to more modern times, to reduce ambiguity, and to level the playing field.

It's also worth noting that motorists can also be charge with manslaughter or with 'wanton and furious driving'.
Perhaps so, but has there been any recent need for it? I think this supports my view that laws should be upgraded to deal better with newer circumstances - in this case, laws pertaining to motoring have been so updated.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I did include that bit.
But you didn't include using it early enough to avoid the collision. Also, I don't completely trust the court expert's reported opinion on stopping distance or some of the other timings - like, can you spot someone stepping off the kerb and then shout two swearing-laden expressions in just 3.8 seconds? From timing myself shouting, that's tight.
 

KnackeredBike

I do my own stunts
Mrs Briggs was stranded in the middle of the road as there was traffic approaching in both directions and a HGV to the left creating a pinch point. Alliston chose to proceed when it should have been clear to him that the pedestrian was in an invidious position - if he had braked hard he would have given Mrs Briggs the opportunity to return to the pavement. By continuing forward at speed he made the situation more dangerous than he needed to. You can argue that this is 20/20 hindsight, but where possible braking to avoid a collision is usually preferable to swerving as it massively reduces the unpredictability factor of the other road user.
See, I'm not sure I buy that. It is very hard to deliberately have a collision. Generally if you realise you are going to have a collision you instinctively take evasive action.

As you say in hindsight it may not have been good or effective evasive action. It may have been hampered by the brakes. But I'm not sure that makes the riding up to that point dangerous in and of itself. The part where I started to lose confidence in the judge is where she implies that CA somehow "forced" himself past the HGV, which is clearly nonsense.

CA himself admitted that he misjudged the ped, that she stepped back into his intended path rather than continuing forwards. People misjudge other people's path all the time, we are all subject to it with SMIDSYs often with severe injuries but they do not result in a dangerous driving charge because it is put down to a "mistake".

Perhaps if the judge and jury were keen cyclist they would realise that cyclists make mistakes too. They are often on bikes with poor stopping distances in the wet. That does not mean they are dangerous cyclists.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
But you didn't include using it early enough to avoid the collision. Also, I don't completely trust the court expert's reported opinion on stopping distance or some of the other timings - like, can you spot someone stepping off the kerb and then shout two swearing-laden expressions in just 3.8 seconds? From timing myself shouting, that's tight.
This morning I spotted someone stepping off the kerb, braked, shouted and avoided a collision - both by slowing down and being able to stop and by alerting the person at risk. All in a second or so. That's because I'd been looking ahead and was aware that the pedestrian in question hadn't looked in my direction.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
It's not "furious cycling"...

I can't really see where the playing field needs to be leveled. As it is, the current situation actually works in favour of cyclists. 'Wanton and furious driving' carries a lesser sentence that 'causing death by careless/dangerous driving'.
The law should not work in favour of cyclists - it should be applied fairly to all.

It's been used recently to prosecute motorists where the vehicle was being used on privateland.
There will always be cases that more recent law does not cover, but that does not mean we should not strive to close such gaps.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
Further to where? A certain muddy brown creek? It would be irresponsible of anyone with an interest in reducing road casualties to encourage the continuing distraction of farting around with more finely-graded penalties for cyclists injuring others while there are still such serious problems in getting Road Justice for the much larger number of cyclists who are injured by motorists.
I think it would clarify the law - do you not thing that all road users should be held equally accountable for their actions?

It's easy to insult any views you don't like by attributing to that mythical tribal mentality, but even those people here who think various aspects of this case are flawed haven't said Alliston was automatically right because he was cycling, have they?
I have seen plenty of extreme comments (here and elsewhere) that express nothing but outrage that this poor young man should be victimised just because someone died in an accident that he was held responsible for. We all want a fairer deal for cyclists, but a part of that is surely accepting when one of our own has done bad and not defending him unconditionally.

Are you just writing stuff that sounds fair or do you really honestly think that the legal playing field is currently tilted in cyclists' favour and needs tilting against them further to level it? :eek:
The application of the law is certainly not level, and I have not suggested anything of the sort. But I don't think that should stop us trying to make the letter of the law applicable equally to all road users.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
Different situations, specifically different classes of road user, pose different levels of risk and so it is appropriate that they are regulated in different ways.
And you think that means there should be no offences applicable to cyclists between "manslaughter" and the ancient “wanton and furious driving”? And that "Causing death by careless/dangerous..." should not be extended to cyclists? I respect your opinion if that is so, but I've seen no explanation for it.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
Absolutely! Do we really want to have to be licensed, for example, and have number plates?
I'll repeat what I asked of another person. Do you think that there should be no offences applicable to cyclists between "manslaughter" and the ancient “wanton and furious driving”?, and that "Causing death by careless/dangerous..." should not be extended to cyclists? I respect your opinion if that is so, but I've seen no explanation for it other than handwavery about licensing and number plates.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
You seem to have been ignoring what I've actually been posting. I'll repeat it for you.

  • There are already a range of offences that apply to cyclists - it's not just 'manslaughter' or 'wanton and furious driving';
  • 'Manslaughter' or 'wanton and furious driving' don't just apply to cyclists - they can apply to motorists as well;
  • Parliament legislates on the basis of risk. The risk posed by cyclists is minimal, so there is no need for parity of offence, particularly when there are already offences that can address the vanishingly small number of serious incidents involving cyclists. The principle that applies is one of equity rather than equality.
I have not been ignoring your points, and I apologise if I make it sound that way - your points are well made and I do not dispute any of the three you mention above.

But my thinking is that covering dangerous use of various kinds of transportation should ideally be brought closer together. It might be that current laws are sufficient based on how often they are used, and that there is no need to change anything based on risk (which impinges on the use of limited parliamentary time), but I also think that fairness in the eyes of the public should be a part of lawmaking.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
I'll repeat what I asked of another person. Do you think that there should be no offences applicable to cyclists between "manslaughter" and the ancient “wanton and furious driving”?, and that "Causing death by careless/dangerous..." should not be extended to cyclists? I respect your opinion if that is so, but I've seen no explanation for it other than handwavery about licensing and number plates.
What offences exist between manslaughter and the ancient offences against the person act that folk get prosecuted for on a daily basis. Old law ain't necessarily bad law. Last thing we need is more law.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I think it would clarify the law - do you not thing that all road users should be held equally accountable for their actions?
Yes but that doesn't require extending the motorists' get-out-of-jail-free offences to cyclists.

I have seen plenty of extreme comments (here and elsewhere)
And yet, you can't cite a single one here. :huh:

The application of the law is certainly not level, and I have not suggested anything of the sort. But I don't think that should stop us trying to make the letter of the law applicable equally to all road users.
Maybe not stop, but it's the wrong farking priority right now. Keeping on exploiting this rare example to promote the distraction of new laws to be applied unevenly is practically the same as tilting the playing field yet further against cycling, not levelling it.
 
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